With respect John, you didn't address what I said. For example, since it's now out in the open I presume you won't mind discussing it, what's the history of the Reaction stuff? How long have you had it and how many trades did it take for that stuff to become so worthless to you and fellow traders that you were about to share it generally? Or are you willing to discuss Hangman? How long have you had it? Has it been traded? How many times etc?
Ivo-1976 · Member since
@John S Stuart.
I get the point. Rare recordings are traded in order to obtain other rare recordings. Making money is not an issue.
However, it seems we ended up with a "Queen Elite", a closed trading-circuit which makes sure nothing should get out in public. Therefore, general fans are the losers in this game.
cmsdrums · Member since
JSS wrote: "No: It is not like that at all. Quite the reverse.
If I pay £5,000 for a tape - that is now my tape.
It's NOT about the money. I bought it to hear the music on the tape".
Yes, you bought the tape - the physical tape - and you own that (if it was actually the vendor's legal right to sell it in the first place that is).
However, if that tape contains music that was illegally taken, has copyright of the writer, performer, studio, record label etc... you are still handling stolen goods, and still don't own that music, no matter how much you paid out for the tape.
I am curious as to your view, from a moral standpoint, towards buying tapes that, probably in most cases, contain material that you know is, in all probability, stolen?
Lord Fickle · Member since
At the end of the day, does any of this actually matter? I don't see why JSS should have to explain himself to any of us - least not, how he came by trades, and how long he has had certain items. Surely that's his business, and his alone? If he has the ultimate Queen rarity, and has paid out of his own money for it, he has no obligation whatsoever to disclose it, or share it, until he is good and ready to do so.
Holly2003 · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]Lord Fickle wrote:[/b]
At the end of the day, does any of this actually matter? I don't see why JSS should have to explain himself to any of us - least not, how he came by trades, and how long he has had certain items. Surely that's his business, and his alone? If he has the ultimate Queen rarity, and has paid out of his own money for it, he has no obligation whatsoever to disclose it, or share it, until he is good and ready to do so.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough, I don't recall anyone *demanding* he should explain himself so that's a bit of a strawman argument, but anyway, take a look who started this topic (I'll give you a clue -- it wasn't me).
Does it matter? This is a Queen forum ffs! And this is the most interesting topic that's been on here for a while. Or maybe you prefer reading yet another "queen's top 20 love songs" thread ...
John S Stuart · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]Holly2003 wrote:[/b]
With respect John, you didn't address what I said. For example, since it's now out in the open I presume you won't mind discussing it, what's the history of the Reaction stuff? How long have you had it and how many trades did it take for that stuff to become so worthless to you and fellow traders that you were about to share it generally? Or are you willing to discuss Hangman? How long have you had it? Has it been traded? How many times etc?[/QUOTE]
Sorry Holly;I appreciate the interest but that is far too personal a topic to discuss in a public forum.
With respect I have gone as far as I am willing to go with this - other than this is not an Elitist issue - anyone can do the same (even you) if you want to. I hope you apprecaite and understand.
But there is nothing new here, it is the same in the world of art, stamps, antiques etc, etc.
John S Stuart · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]cmsdrums wrote:[/b]
JSS wrote: "No: It is not like that at all. Quite the reverse.
If I pay £5,000 for a tape - that is now my tape.
It's NOT about the money. I bought it to hear the music on the tape".
Yes, you bought the tape - the physical tape - and you own that (if it was actually the vendor's legal right to sell it in the first place that is).
However, if that tape contains music that was illegally taken, has copyright of the writer, performer, studio, record label etc... you are still handling stolen goods, and still don't own that music, no matter how much you paid out for the tape.
I am curious as to your view, from a moral standpoint, towards buying tapes that, probably in most cases, contain material that you know is, in all probability, stolen?
[/QUOTE]
NO, no, no, no, no, no, no...
Why are you so obsessed with theft?
Why are you so hung-up on the word stolen.
What are you trying to say here?
Why the stereo thinking?
You are old enough to know better.
I have nothing which was recorded illegally.
So your hypothtical argument is not valid.
Musicians are a commodity. The make music to order for money.
Bands such as the Stones and Queen (especially adverts) have all sold out for money.
The Sheffield's paid for their first four albums.
They own the albums - not Queen.
You already KNOW that.
If I bought the master tapes. I own the master tapes.
End of.
Why then are the contents stolen?
I do not see your point.
If you are saying would I buy something which was illegal off the back of a lorry - yes if it was a bootleg. But as for psst. "I have a syphoned copy of "My Way" - no I would not buy it.
Holly2003 · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]John S Stuart wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE] [b]Holly2003 wrote:[/b]
With respect John, you didn't address what I said. For example, since it's now out in the open I presume you won't mind discussing it, what's the history of the Reaction stuff? How long have you had it and how many trades did it take for that stuff to become so worthless to you and fellow traders that you were about to share it generally? Or are you willing to discuss Hangman? How long have you had it? Has it been traded? How many times etc?[/QUOTE]
Sorry Holly;I appreciate the interest but that is far too personal a topic to discuss in a public forum.
With respect I have gone as far as I am willing to go with this - other than this is not an Elitist issue - anyone can do the same (even you) if you want to. I hope you apprecaite and understand.
But there is nothing new here, it is the same in the world of art, stamps, antiques etc, etc.
[/QUOTE]
Ok fair enough. I don't understand the secrecy though: if as you say, you guys are all about sharing, then people surely need to know what you have so they can trade with you? To be honest, I don't buy your "after a few trades" comment at all. A concrete example might help, which is why I mentioned the Reaction stuff. But fair enough if you don't want to talk about it.
Togg · Member since
John, you keep failing to answer the question we are all asking, well me anyway.
You imply that no music finds its way to collectors hands by means of being stolen from the band, record company, or whomsoever actually owns it.
Seriously if you really believe that or are trying to convince us that is the case then I am afraid it blows a hole the size of the Albert Hall in your argument.
I dont think anyone would argue if you buy a christmas card from someone who was sent it by Freddie it then becomes yours. But that is NOT what is being said here.
It is simply implausable that none of the rare recordings out there are out there because the band simply threw them away or gave them to someone
I am not having a pop at you just your argument, I respect you have a passion for collecting this stuff and are indeed very knowledgeable about the bands recordings, but the notion that every rare track traded by collectors is in their hands legitimately defys belief.
John S Stuart · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]Ivo-1976 wrote:[/b]
@John S Stuart.
I get the point. Rare recordings are traded in order to obtain other rare recordings. Making money is not an issue.
However, it seems we ended up with a "Queen Elite", a closed trading-circuit which makes sure nothing should get out in public. Therefore, general fans are the losers in this game. [/QUOTE]
This happens in all walks of life. Not only Queen.
There are Beatles, and Zeppelin rarities I would like - but I can't get them either.
Why don't you go and get some rarities of your own?
But I expect you will be part of the point-and-click generation?
Also WHAT is with this "I am a Queen Fan - so I deserve this?"
Go post to Brian May - he is the biggest hoarded - not me.
John S Stuart · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]Holly2003 wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE] [b]John S Stuart wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE] [b]Holly2003 wrote:[/b]
With respect John, you didn't address what I said. For example, since it's now out in the open I presume you won't mind discussing it, what's the history of the Reaction stuff? How long have you had it and how many trades did it take for that stuff to become so worthless to you and fellow traders that you were about to share it generally? Or are you willing to discuss Hangman? How long have you had it? Has it been traded? How many times etc?[/QUOTE]
Sorry Holly;I appreciate the interest but that is far too personal a topic to discuss in a public forum.
With respect I have gone as far as I am willing to go with this - other than this is not an Elitist issue - anyone can do the same (even you) if you want to. I hope you apprecaite and understand.
But there is nothing new here, it is the same in the world of art, stamps, antiques etc, etc.
[/QUOTE]
Ok fair enough. I don't understand the secrecy though: if as you say, you guys are all about sharing, then people surely need to know what you have so they can trade with you? To be honest, I don't buy your "after a few trades" comment at all. A concrete example might help, which is why I mentioned the Reaction stuff. But fair enough if you don't want to talk about it. [/QUOTE]
Your choice Holly - you pay's your money and takes your choice. You don't want to buy - don't buy. All I can say is that you are so far-off base it is unbelievable.
I repect your choice to disbelieve - but you would need to be in it to understand it.
Perhaps repositioning your thinking may be another way to look at it. You may not believe it anymore - but it may broaden your perspective.
John S Stuart · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]Togg wrote:[/b]
John, you keep failing to answer the question we are all asking, well me anyway.
You imply that no music finds its way to collectors hands by means of being stolen from the band, record company, or whomsoever actually owns it.
Seriously if you really believe that or are trying to convince us that is the case then I am afraid it blows a hole the size of the Albert Hall in your argument.
I dont think anyone would argue if you buy a christmas card from someone who was sent it by Freddie it then becomes yours. But that is NOT what is being said here.
It is simply implausable that none of the rare recordings out there are out there because the band simply threw them away or gave them to someone
I am not having a pop at you just your argument, I respect you have a passion for collecting this stuff and are indeed very knowledgeable about the bands recordings, but the notion that every rare track traded by collectors is in their hands legitimately defys belief.[/QUOTE]
It is simply implausable that none of the rare recordings out there are out there because the band simply threw them away or gave them to someone
Sorry, but that IS the case! Sorry to burst your bubble!
All I can say is that you would not believe how unprofessional and careless these companies can be.
They need an archivist - really? What for?
For me - my stuff would be clean and tidy and archived from the off.
(Also: These are NOT rarites at the time - cast-offs would be more appropriate)
You think they are organised and super efficient - they are not. Think about it - they needed an archivist to catalogue a dozen or so albums?
My answer is that your beginning assumption is completely wrong. Hard to believe, hard to undersatnd fine, but believe me, you really do have a very wrong understanding of the record industry as a whole and QPL in particular.
Other than that, I really, really, really can not add any more.
splicksplack · Member since
JSS, this is the deal
Unless you have something in writing from the originator of the music effectively giving you the rights then you do not own it.
Master tapes, acetates, mini-discs etc etc are just the medium that carries the intellectual property (the music).
You did not create the music. To buy the rights to any music connected with Queen would be extremely expensive and, reading between the lines, you're not in that bracket.
I am aware that there are people that really want to hear this stuff (I couldn't give a toss) and I know it leaks out. So if you have something that people want you would probably feel better about yourself if you just shared it.
But if you really are just a school kid then go ahead and jealously hoard away.
But remember this... You are not the musician that created that music. Your imagined status is from the work of others. That makes you a parasite.
Holly2003 · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]John S Stuart wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE] [b]Holly2003 wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE] [b]John S Stuart wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE] [b]Holly2003 wrote:[/b]
With respect John, you didn't address what I said. For example, since it's now out in the open I presume you won't mind discussing it, what's the history of the Reaction stuff? How long have you had it and how many trades did it take for that stuff to become so worthless to you and fellow traders that you were about to share it generally? Or are you willing to discuss Hangman? How long have you had it? Has it been traded? How many times etc?[/QUOTE]
Sorry Holly;I appreciate the interest but that is far too personal a topic to discuss in a public forum.
With respect I have gone as far as I am willing to go with this - other than this is not an Elitist issue - anyone can do the same (even you) if you want to. I hope you apprecaite and understand.
But there is nothing new here, it is the same in the world of art, stamps, antiques etc, etc.
[/QUOTE]
Ok fair enough. I don't understand the secrecy though: if as you say, you guys are all about sharing, then people surely need to know what you have so they can trade with you? To be honest, I don't buy your "after a few trades" comment at all. A concrete example might help, which is why I mentioned the Reaction stuff. But fair enough if you don't want to talk about it. [/QUOTE]
Your choice Holly - you pay's your money and takes your choice. You don't want to buy - don't buy. All I can say is that you are so far-off base it is unbelievable.
I repect your choice to disbelieve - but you would need to be in it to understand it.
Perhaps repositioning your thinking may be another way to look at it. You may not believe it anymore - but it may broaden your perspective.
[/QUOTE]
Sorry I don't understand what you mean. Surely there's an example you can give to support your assertion that this stuff is more likely to be shared generally after a just a few private shares amongst collectors? And if you can't then how do you expect anyone to believe it's true? And again if, as you and a few others have stated, you want to be regarded as sharers rather than collectors only interested in hanging onto your goodies, then why all the secrecy about what you have?
Togg · Member since
splicksplack, Look, that is a stupid statement, John simply collects the stuff he doesnt claim any imagined status other than that of a collector just because he collects rare items does not make him a parasite, but maybe those that seek to steal from the band are?
John, as you say we will agree to disagree here, I am amazed at your claim, it is totally unbelievable, but I understand your desire to defend your pastime. But every well known band in the past 40 or so years have suffered at the hands of theives. Brian has commented on it in the past, the last time I heard him regarding items lost it included the blonde telecaster played by Freddie during the 86 tour, it apparently went missing from the warehouse and probably sits on someones wall somewhere.
Sorry but even outside the collectors circle it is well known that items mysteriously dissappear from recording sessions only later to turn up online or in someones collection. Defend it if you must but dont try to claim everyone in the collecting community is whiter than white and everything just falls form the sky into their hands
