Songwriting, Arrangements, etc., and how they differ

Sebastian wrote:



* Iron Maiden: Other than the actual guitar solos, Harris usually writes everything for every instrument and then teaches it to the rest of the band.

).

Not true. All of Iron Maiden write. The things I'm aware of Harris writing were often a Bass line and lyrics, sometimes chord changes mapped out on a guitar, but often not. The rest of the band build up the song structure on those basic ideas. Most of the
time. Bruce Dickinson very often is responsible for the final melody, although Harris or who ever else has written something may give him pointers.

As regards to Queen and the comment that the Bass plays the same part as the guitar, an octave lower in TYMD and does the same for much of Bo Rhap on the piano parts thus proving that the writer of each song wrote the Bass parts. No they didn't. Why would both Freddie and Brian have the same ideas of what the Bass should be doing. The fact that both songs feature a similarly built Bass line is surely proof that the line were written by John

I love John Deacon. He really excelled himself in two Freddie songs:
- The Millionary Waltz and We are The Champions

I don´t know if Freddie wrote those lines, but the beginning of WATC is classic John.

And i´m inclined to say that TMW was a co-creation between the two of them. Take a look at this excelent performance of the song by a fan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xVzsdGnLEQ

When he pulled those harmonics at 1:05min i knew i was listening to a higher level of thinking music and the Bass guitar. Freddie could have given him directions but those harmonics are John´s, and that´s the genius at work. I´m pretty sure that even Freddie was impressed with the end result.

He left us with so much beauty to enjoy if we care to really listen to his music.

Great topic, Sebastian.

Vocal harmony wrote:

Not true. All of Iron Maiden write. The things I'm aware of Harris writing were often a Bass line and lyrics, sometimes chord changes mapped out on a guitar, but often not.

Harris wrote the bass line, the guitar line, the other guitar line, the melody and the drum part, more often than not. Other than the guitar solos, he was basically responsible for all everything played, with some exceptions.

Vocal harmony wrote:

As regards to Queen and the comment that the Bass plays the same part as the guitar, an octave lower in TYMD and does the same for much of Bo Rhap on the piano parts thus proving that the writer of each song wrote the Bass parts. No they didn't.

Yes they did: if the bass is doubling the guitar, then whoever wrote the guitar part has effectively written both. Same for piano left hand.

Vocal harmony wrote:

Why would both Freddie and Brian have the same ideas of what the Bass should be doing.

Because instrument doubling is one of the most basic, most important and most beautiful concepts of music. From Beethoven to Lady Gaga, from Holst to Deep Purple, from traditional Indian music to whoever arranges for Britney Spears, the phenomenon of an instrument doubling another is ancient, and when used correctly, is quite effective.

Vocal harmony wrote:

The fact that both songs feature a similarly built Bass line is surely proof that the line were written by John

No, unless John wrote the guitar and piano parts, respectively.

Mr.QueenFan wrote:

When he pulled those harmonics at 1:05min i knew i was listening to a higher level of thinking music and the Bass guitar. Freddie could have given him directions but those harmonics are John´s

They're *played* by John, but not necessarily *written* by him.

At the end of the day, it's not about scoring bass parts or guitar parts or piano parts or vocal parts, it's about scoring music parts and then have then played by the bass or the guitar or the piano or sung or whatever.

Freddie, Roger and Brian didn't need to be excellent bass players in order to write great bass lines; they just needed to be excellent composers, which they were/are.

Same for any other combination (e.g., John and guitar).

Sebastian, you're making a lot of assumptions with little proof.

Yes doubling a line on Bass an octave below the main instrument is a classic and musically very appealing method of playing. It doesn't however prove that it is what either BM or Freddie told JD to play. He was a very competent musician and very capable of creating what ever he thought would fit in to a song.

Queen's writing method, particularly in the 70's was for someone to come in with lyrics and a basic structure, which was then jammed and worked on until they found something they were happy with. On many occasions everyone changed the basic idea but the song was always credited to the person who came up with the original idea.

JD could have very easily created those parts out of choice.

With regard to Iron Maiden, it may be Harris' band and he may have the final say as to what he likes or doesn't, but your idea that he composes everything in a song is way off the mark.

Vocal harmony wrote:

Sebastian, you're making a lot of assumptions with little proof.

No, I'm not.

Vocal harmony wrote:

He was a very competent musician and very capable of creating what ever he thought would fit in to a song.

So were the others.

Vocal harmony wrote:

Queen's writing method, particularly in the 70's was for someone to come in with lyrics and a basic structure, which was then jammed and worked on until they found something they were happy with.

No, it wasn't. Their method was for someone to come in with lyrics and music, including all parts for all instruments.

Vocal harmony wrote:

On many occasions everyone changed the basic idea but the song was always credited to the person who came up with the original idea.

Not true. On *several* occasions *someone* (but not *every*one) would suggest changes and then the author of the song would rule whether said changes were fitting or not.

Vocal harmony wrote:

JD could have very easily created those parts out of choice.

No, as they already existed as the guitar or left-hand piano parts, and had been created beforehand by the creator of the song.

Vocal harmony wrote:

With regard to Iron Maiden, it may be Harris' band and he may have the final say as to what he likes or doesn't, but your idea that he composes everything in a song is way off the mark.

It's not, and I didn't say he composes everything. I said everything *but* the guitar solos. Everything is not the same as 'not everything'.

Sebastian wrote:

Vocal harmony wrote:

Queen's writing method, particularly in the 70's was for someone to come in with lyrics and a basic structure, which was then jammed and worked on until they found something they were happy with.

No, it wasn't. Their method was for someone to come in with lyrics and music, including all parts for all instruments.

Yes, but there are some exceptions to this. From memory:

Brian wrote the solo for Bohemian Rhapsody.
The harmonizing solo of Killer Queen isn´t Freddie either, because that´s the way Brian thinks the guitar, not Freddie. Brian already explained the thinking behing that solo on some interviews.

Another example is how pissed Brian was because of Freddie using another guitar player on his "Mr.Bad Guy" solo album after directing the guitar player to play Brian´s style, including follow some demoed guitar parts by Brian - She Blows Hot and Cold is a great example of this. This means that Freddie didn´t wrote everything for the other instruments. There was freedom for them to create. And i´m only talking about the solos here, not the song structure, even though they said that if one of them wanted help with the song, the others would help, like Freddie composing the middle eight of "These are the days of our lives" at Roger´s request.
Brian wrote the solo for TATDOOL too, wich Roger hated at first and now he loves it.
The guitar solo on "Heaven for everyone" on the Queen version is all Brian´s, simply because there isn´t anything like it on the other versions.
Even Steve Howe says he improvised on the Innuendo acoustic solos . It´s posted on Brian website from a couple days ago.

So, even though i understand that they could have the basic structure and ideas of what they wanted, there was freedom for them to put their thinking into it.
But not in all songs! Keep in mind that this is for some songs, not ALL the songs. Your post didn´t let a door open for exceptions, even though that´s what me, and i think others are talking about. Some exceptions throughout the years.


Another example for me would be the bass for "Too much love will kill you" and TATTOOL. That´s John, there´s no way those other two cats can think of a bass guitar like that, because you won´t find that outside Queen on their solo projects. The bass for "I´m going slightly mad" is classic John all the way through too. Those arpeggiated slides in the beginning are heaven and repeated in the intro of "It´s a beautifull Day".

The other place outside Queen where you can find that bass style is on Freddie´s Barcelona album in the song "How can i go on" and that´s because John plays it. Freddie was a smart man and he knew who the man for the job was.

And the same goes to the drumming of "We are the Champions". The tone, the rythm. The perfection!
It has to have Roger finger on it, of course respecting Freddie directions, but keep in mind that Roger was responsable for the sound of the songs due to his different Drum kits over the years. I don´t think that Freddie gave a shit about the composition of Roger´s drum kits, but in the end it had HUGE influence on their sound. A great example is the "News of the World" album. Fredie wrote WATC in 1975, so at that time i don´t believe he was listening to Roger drum kit of 77 in his head. He knew what he wanted, but things were adjusted once he was exposed to new sounds from Roger "new" drum kit.

I believe that maybe Brian was more assertive towards the drumming he wanted - like on "Sweet Lady" - than the other two. So i think the dynamics changed, but in the end they were all quite unique on their instruments.

Of course, there are many assumptions here, so people feel free to correct me because i love to learn new things about Queen. That´s why i love this kind of topics. Very refreshing!

Brian wrote the solo for TATDOOL too, wich Roger hated at first .....(and now he loves it.)

How could he hated this one? The guitar is actualy like crying in a very human then subtle way . Its perfect for me. Actually my favourite.

The only reason i can think of its becouse it may sounded over sentimental at first but then again the song is too so can't really explain it.

like Freddie composing the middle eight of "These are the days of our lives" at Roger´s request.

Does "These are the days of our lives" have a middle eight?
I can't hear it. Is it supposed to be the one after the solo? To me it sounds like the chorus enhanced (or on a higher key).

Where exactly is the middle eight?

Seb - I think this question is on topic as it related to arrangements;

There is a little bass 'trill' in Heaven For Everyone by The Cross, which from memory is under the glockenspeil bit, before the vocal part of "what people do to other souls....". This same bass part appears to be exactly (and I don't mean a part copied but played differently, but EXACTLY) the same on the Queen version.

Do you know if this therefore means that Peter Noone appears uncredited on the Queen version, or is it the other way around and John plays the part on the Shove it album? (a third option could be that it is Roger, but it doesn't sound like his playing style).

Thanks!

Sabastian if what your saying was the case, how do you explain the fact that there are many examples of songs that Queen were working on, available on Youtube and else where, which in there early stages are quite differentbto what has been released as a finished song, is that down to the original writer having put all their musical, and lyrical ideas down for the band to learn and copy as you suggest? Or is it a case of the writer bringing something in and The Band working on it as A Band. Quote Rogere Taylor. "Usually someone brings an idea in and everyone changes it".

One of factors, not the only one, that led the band to start crediting the band and not individuals as writers was because they all chipped in and worked together. So a left hand piano part that John happens to play along with could quite easily be JD's decision to play that Bass part like that, as much as it could be someone suggesting he did that.

The Iron Maiden thing, yes Iron Maiden there because Harris wants it to be, he formed it and is still part of it, he doesn't as you say write all the parts, except the guitar solos. The band work together. And if they work as you suggest why has Steve Harris felt the need to release a solo album. Could it be so he can get his songs out there written, played and recorded 100% the way he wants, because being a band member doesn't allow that.

Stelios wrote:

like Freddie composing the middle eight of "These are the days of our lives" at Roger´s request.

Does "These are the days of our lives" have a middle eight?
I can't hear it. Is it supposed to be the one after the solo? To me it sounds like the chorus enhanced (or on a higher key).

Where exactly is the middle eight?

I don´t know if that´s the correct name (i´m not a professional musician) but i once saw someone refering to it as the middle eight so i just went along with it. So there´s no confusion, Freddie wrote the chord changes over which Brian soloed. It starts at 2:35m in the next video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB4K0scMysc

Roger told that he was stuck when writing this song and couldn´t move forward with it, so he asked Freddie for his input, and Freddie created the chord structure over which Brian recorded his guitar solo.

cmsdrums wrote:

Seb - I think this question is on topic as it related to arrangements;

There is a little bass 'trill' in Heaven For Everyone by The Cross, which from memory is under the glockenspeil bit, before the vocal part of "what people do to other souls....". This same bass part appears to be exactly (and I don't mean a part copied but played differently, but EXACTLY) the same on the Queen version.

Do you know if this therefore means that Peter Noone appears uncredited on the Queen version, or is it the other way around and John plays the part on the Shove it album? (a third option could be that it is Roger, but it doesn't sound like his playing style).

Thanks!

I know you´re asking Seb, but let me give my input on it.
This is a great question. I thought about it myself in the past and i believe it´s John. The phrasing on the end of the section is a little different in both versions (right before the vocals). But you´re right, they do sound the same. Unless the Cross version had that recorded but not used i have to say John, but who knows? Very identical.

But if it is John, then i believe that it was recorded for the "Made in Heaven" sessions and not for the Cross sessions. I think by now we would have heard about it.

Mr.QueenFan wrote:

Stelios wrote:

like Freddie composing the middle eight of "These are the days of our lives" at Roger´s request.

Does "These are the days of our lives" have a middle eight?
I can't hear it. Is it supposed to be the one after the solo? To me it sounds like the chorus enhanced (or on a higher key).

Where exactly is the middle eight?

I don´t know if that´s the correct name (i´m not a professional musician) but i once saw someone refering to it as the middle eight so i just went along with it. So there´s no confusion, Freddie wrote the chord changes over which Brian soloed. It starts at 2:35m in the next video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB4K0scMysc

Roger told that he was stuck when writing this song and couldn´t move forward with it, so he asked Freddie for is input, and Freddie created the chord structure over which Brian recorded his guitar solo.

middle eight or bridge is the part were its neither verse or chorus.
Like " my soul is painted...i can fly my friends" in TShowMGOn
But i get what you are saying about the chord progression durring the solo.

Great and appreciated topic for us learners! Thanks!