Songwriting, Arrangements, etc., and how they differ

Vocal harmony wrote:

Sabastian

It's Sebastian, with an 'e'. Please learn to spell.

Vocal harmony wrote:

how do you explain the fact that there are many examples of songs that Queen were working on

Actually, there's only one: 'One Vision'. Please learn the difference between 'one' and 'many.'

Vocal harmony wrote:

Quote Rogere Taylor. "Usually someone brings an idea in and everyone changes it".

That quote is from 1985 and it refers to that specific period in time. The AKOM album was a fairly collaborative one: they all discussed the lyrics of FWBF once Freddie brought the initial idea, three of them worked on OV, Fred re-arranged the title track, Fred and John worked together on PISCTP after an idea that Brian came up with. It could even be expanded to 'The Works' era as there was a Maylor collab, a Taycury partnership, a Maycury one and reportedly Freddie did a lot on IWTBF.

It doesn't, however, mean *at all* that was the case up to 'Hot Space' (and more often than not it wasn't) or from 'The Miracle' to 'Made in Heaven' (ditto).

Vocal harmony wrote:

So a left hand piano part that John happens to play along with could quite easily be JD's decision to play that Bass part like that, as much as it could be someone suggesting he did that.

But either way, whoever wrote the piano part wrote the bass part in that case

Vocal harmony wrote:

The Iron Maiden thing, yes Iron Maiden there because Harris wants it to be, he formed it and is still part of it, he doesn't as you say write all the parts, except the guitar solos.

He does.

Vocal harmony wrote:

The band work together.

Yes, they work together really well. It still doesn't change the fact Steve writes all parts for all instruments except the guitar solos.

Vocal harmony wrote:

And if they work as you suggest why has Steve Harris felt the need to release a solo album.

Not at all. Good musicians can work for the song. Steve can (and often does) arrange a guitar part and then get someone else to play it, as he knows it'll sound better that way. It also happened a lot to Beatles, Queen, Eagles, etc. Writing a part and playing it are different concepts.

Loads of people can write parts they can't perform, loads of people can perform parts they can't write.

Vocal harmony wrote:

Could it be so he can get his songs out there written, played and recorded 100% the way he wants, because being a band member doesn't allow that.

He can still have the songs performed exactly the way he wants as everyone else in the band are professionals who can play really well. Being a band member obviously allows the original writer to keep their vision, and it happens to several bands: Beatles, Eagles, Kansas, Queen, Iron Maiden.

Sebastian, I'm sorry about the miss spelling, bad typing, proof reading and lack of time.

I think you'll find many examples of Queen demos, being worked on or not, sounding different to the finished released song. If I can find them on Youtube I'm sure you can. The point was that if a song ends up sounding different when it's finished then their has to have been input from other sources then just the writer.

Please believe me, your view of Harris's writing methods with Iron Maiden for the most part is wrong.

I recall Brian saying that the writing process was that someone would bring a song in and the rest would cut it to pieces. That's the way bands work, unless they're a dictatorship band a la the Who or Van Halen where there is a member who has the bulk of the control via writing or ideas. If there were disputes Brian said they'd give the author their head, meaning you want it that way, you live with it good or bad. I think tons of things changed in the writing process that we'll never know about.

Vocal harmony wrote:

The point was that if a song ends up sounding different when it's finished then their has to have been input from other sources then just the writer.

Not necessarily. Changes can, and often do, come from the same writer. Not just in music, but also if you look at first drafts of books, articles, etc. Sometimes there's proof-reading and copy-editing by other people, sometimes there's input from others, indeed, but sometimes it's the same person who revised his or her work and decided to modify it accordingly.

Vocal harmony wrote:

Please believe me, your view of Harris's writing methods with Iron Maiden for the most part is wrong.

I don't believe you, and no, it's not wrong. I've been wrong many times, and I've also been right many times, this one belongs to the latter group.

Sheer Brass Neck wrote:

I recall Brian saying that the writing process was that someone would bring a song in and the rest would cut it to pieces.

That might have easily been the case for some songs but not necessarily for all of them. No two cases were ever the same.

Sheer Brass Neck wrote:

That's the way bands work.

No two bands are the same.

Sheer Brass Neck wrote:

unless they're a dictatorship band

That's got nothing to do with dictatorship, or Hitler (we're getting close to mentioning him so why not?), it's just the fact that the author of the song had ultimate say. It was part of their compromise of a band: Fred would get his way on his songs, Brian on his, Roger on his, John on his.

My original post described the different scenarios and, again, no two songs were the same. Queen belonged, overall, to the kind of bands were the creator of the song would usually either write all parts for all instruments, or write most parts for most instruments and then decide on which external suggestions to take and which ones to discard.

Some bands work on a far deeper level of improvisation, jamming and delegating. Queen, Beatles, Kansas, Eagles, Iron Maiden, not so much... which doesn't at all mean they were dictatorships. Freddie was absolutely fine with singing what John wanted the way John wanted on a song by John, the same way John was happy with playing what Freddie wanted the way Freddie wanted on a song by Freddie.

Sheer Brass Neck wrote:

I think tons of things changed in the writing process that we'll never know about.

Of course, but of what can be documented, they were usually (though not by any means always) respecting the author as the ultimate decision-maker, either in terms of accepting/rejecting any suggestions by the others, or in terms of writing all parts for all instruments by himself. It applied to all four of them.

How much input did Freddie have on sail away sweet sister and long away and save me
3 Brian songs that have great melodies
Just interested how that happens, is it all Brian's melodies, the vocals are so great melodies, is that Freddie giving some ideas or all Brian's ideas?
Oh and who wants to live forever, is that all Brian's vocal melodies?
Oh and I must ask seeing as John does not sing
What about your my best friend and spread your wings, who came up with the vocal melodies for those?
Did John do demos of the above songs with his own vocals? How does that work?
They would be some very collectable demos lol
John can sing but not to the standard he thinks is good enough, that must be the answer. So there must be demos john sings on for those two songs.
Probably SYWngs is different key very simpler on guitar. You never know, we might see more explained and hear actual demos played back when the movie comes out?
I like that barn with candles video, should be good for movie also.

Sebastian, as if proof was needed. Have a look at BM's website, a clear explanation of how things are changed during the writing process. And Stone Cold Crazy wasn't the only song that happened on.

I have sat in a room with Iron Maiden when they've worked on new songs. I've witnessed the way they work. Using that as my reality bench mark, I know that your view of their working methods and particularly Steve Harris's is wrong.

Their for if you are wrong about that, there can be no certainty that your ideas about how Queen used to work are correct and as such the possibility that some else has a view, which may be contrary to yours, has to be accepted as being at least a possible alternative to what you believe to be fact.

Seb, when I say "that's the way bands work", you reply "no two bands are the same." I get that. Which is why I wrote that "unless they're a dictatorship band", and used examples where there was an overpowering personality who reigned over the others when it came to direction. Merriam-Webster defines band as " to unite for a common purpose —often used with together", which is removed from alone, or solo. So "bands" work together to make songs to fit the way that the "band" is happy with.

Also, there is no definitive proof that backs up your statement that "Queen belonged, overall, to the kind of bands were the creator of the song would usually either write all parts for all instruments, or write most parts for most instruments and then decide on which external suggestions to take and which ones to discard." If you can prove 100 instances where that occurs I'll accept it, otherwise you're engaging in speculation.

Queenfansunite wrote:

How much input did Freddie have on sail away sweet sister and long away and save me

Brian wrote them. His melodic brain is May-estic.

Queenfansunite wrote:

Oh and I must ask seeing as John does not sing
What about your my best friend and spread your wings, who came up with the vocal melodies for those?

Not being a singer doesn't disable you from being able to compose good melodies for vocals. Composing/arranging something and performing it are different disciplines.

Queenfansunite wrote:

So there must be demos john sings on for those two songs.

'Must' is a word that 'must' be eliminated from these kind of research IMO. And no, most likely there were no Deacon-sung demos of them. FAIK, he showed them to Freddie and then Freddie learnt them long before they cut the first demo, or if John did the demo himself, he'd play the melody line on guitar or keyboards.

Vocal harmony wrote:

Sebastian, as if proof was needed. Have a look at BM's website, a clear explanation of how things are changed during the writing process. And Stone Cold Crazy wasn't the only song that happened on.

BM doesn't check everything on his website, and a lot of what is there is inaccurate (just like a lot of what is there is accurate). SCC wasn't the only song where that happened, that's true, but it doesn't mean they always worked like that.

Brian, not being a bassist, drummer or pianist, arranged loads of bass, drum and piano parts which he got the others to play, and some which he played himself.

John, not being a guitarist, drummer or pianist, arranged loads of guitar, drum and piano parts which he got the others to play, and some which he played himself.

Freddie, not being a guitarist, bassist or drummer, arranged loads of guitar, bass and drums parts which he got the others to play, and some which he played himself.

Roger, not being a guitarist, bassist or pianist, arranged loads of guitar, bass and piano parts which he got the others to play, some of which he played himself.

Vocal harmony wrote:

I have sat in a room with Iron Maiden when they've worked on new songs. I've witnessed the way they work.

Any proof of that?

Vocal harmony wrote:

Their for

It's 'therefore'.

Vocal harmony wrote:

what you believe to be fact.

Correction: to what you believe I believe to be a fact.

Sheer Brass Neck wrote:

Merriam-Webster defines band as " to unite for a common purpose —often used with together"

Yeah, but it doesn't mean they do *everything* together. They went to the toilet separately (I hope...), and they also wrote and arranged songs separately.

Sheer Brass Neck wrote:

Which is why I wrote that "unless they're a dictatorship band"

Dictatorship bands aren't the only exception to that. There were other bands which, not being dictatorships, still had the author being also the sole or chief arranger: Beatles, Eagles, Kansas, Queen, Iron Maiden.

Sheer Brass Neck wrote:

If you can prove 100 instances where that occurs I'll accept it, otherwise you're engaging in speculation.

If you can prove 100 instances where that doesn't occur I'll accept it, otherwise you're engaging in speculation.

Steve Gadd was a friend of mine, he was Nics Dums teck before becoming their tour manager. Beyond that I'm giving you no More proof.

And BM doesn't have to read his own interview to know what he has said, I don't think.

You have authored some great posts on here. But that doesn't mean you are exclusively right about everything. Maybe a bit of acceptance that there are other answers, or ways of looking at things other than your own. You don't appear to be willing to be flexible on a subject that you are largely in the dark about.

Sheer Brass Neck wrote:

If you can prove 100 instances where that occurs I'll accept it, otherwise you're engaging in speculation.

If you can prove 100 instances where that doesn't occur I'll accept it, otherwise you're engaging in speculation.[/QUOTE]


But i'm not the one stating it's an absolute, you are!

Sebastian wrote:[/


Roger, not being a guitarist, bassist

Correction: to what you believe I believe to be a fact.

Reading what you have to say about RT then reading what you've just said about me. . .

You appear to be chasing your tail to. Make a point.

Sebastian wrote:

Queenfansunite wrote:

How much input did Freddie have on sail away sweet sister and long away and save me

Brian wrote them. His melodic brain is May-estic.

Queenfansunite wrote:

Oh and I must ask seeing as John does not sing
What about your my best friend and spread your wings, who came up with the vocal melodies for those?

Not being a singer doesn't disable you from being able to compose good melodies for vocals. Composing/arranging something and performing it are different disciplines.

Queenfansunite wrote:

So there must be demos john sings on for those two songs.

'Must' is a word that 'must' be eliminated from these kind of research IMO. And no, most likely there were no Deacon-sung demos of them. FAIK, he showed them to Freddie and then Freddie learnt them long before they cut the first demo, or if John did the demo himself, he'd play the melody line on guitar or keyboards.

Vocal harmony wrote:

Sebastian, as if proof was needed. Have a look at BM's website, a clear explanation of how things are changed during the writing process. And Stone Cold Crazy wasn't the only song that happened on.

BM doesn't check everything on his website, and a lot of what is there is inaccurate (just like a lot of what is there is accurate). SCC wasn't the only song where that happened, that's true, but it doesn't mean they always worked like that.

Brian, not being a bassist, drummer or pianist, arranged loads of bass, drum and piano parts which he got the others to play, and some which he played himself.

John, not being a guitarist, drummer or pianist, arranged loads of guitar, drum and piano parts which he got the others to play, and some which he played himself.

Freddie, not being a guitarist, bassist or drummer, arranged loads of guitar, bass and drums parts which he got the others to play, and some which he played himself.

Roger, not being a guitarist, bassist or pianist, arranged loads of guitar, bass and piano parts which he got the others to play, some of which he played himself.

Vocal harmony wrote:

I have sat in a room with Iron Maiden when they've worked on new songs. I've witnessed the way they work.

Any proof of that?

Vocal harmony wrote:

Their for

It's 'therefore'.

Vocal harmony wrote:

what you believe to be fact.

Correction: to what you believe I believe to be a fact.

Ok I see that is possible, but it is still equally also possible that there are demos with John singing your my best friend and spread your wings.
I hope so anyway.

Vocal harmony wrote:

But that doesn't mean you are exclusively right about everything.

Of course not. I've been wrong many times, and I've admitted so (including on this thread). I've also been right many times.

Vocal harmony wrote:

Maybe a bit of acceptance that there are other answers, or ways of looking at things other than your own.

I've got loads of acceptance about it. Maybe you should take your own advice.

Vocal harmony wrote:

You don't appear to be willing to be flexible on a subject that you are largely in the dark about.

I am, but in this case I'm not so largely in the dark about. Queen members, very often, would write all parts for all instruments in their own songs.

Sheer Brass Neck wrote:

But i'm not the one stating it's an absolute, you are!

Actually, you are, by claiming that all bands have members co-arranging everything unless they're a dictatorship. That's a very B/W way of seeing it. These things are not B/W and they're not a greyscale either. There are millions of colours, and not being able to see the FIR or the UV doesn't mean they don't exist.