Songwriting, Arrangements, etc., and how they differ

^^^

Sebastian, i think your research and musical knowledge is sensational so I am not against you. I think you're trying too hard to be the smartest guy in the room here. You posted "Queen belonged, overall, to the kind of bands were the creator of the song would usually either write all parts for all instruments, or write most parts for most instruments and then decide on which external suggestions to take and which ones to discard." I didn't post that "Queen belonged, overall, to the kind of bands were (it's actually 'where' since you've pointed out other's typos this is fair play) the creator of the song would seldom write all parts for the instruments and then ask for suggestions on which parts to add." So you are suggesting that Queen, "overall, would usually write all parts for instruments..." Prove it. Give me five examples. I'll help you out with the first one. Roger said Brian pushed him to play a certain style for Sweet Lady. However, that doesn't mean that Brian "wrote all parts for instruments." Would you say he did as it relates to Sweet Lady? If you did, we'll agree to disagree on what writing parts means. I don't think think Brian could write the drum part for Sweet Lady. I think he could say "steady kick with the drum, aggressive hi hat and snare" whereas Roger may have envisioned a straight 3/4 beat. Same thing as the bass at the end of SASS. I don't think Brian wrote it (he had the ability too) but I think he gave John guidance to play out over a melodic line. Which of us is certain?

[QUOTE] [b]Sheer Brass Neck wrote:[/b]

I think you're trying too hard to be the smartest guy in the room here.[/QUOTE]

I'm not.

[QUOTE] [b]Sheer Brass Neck wrote:[/b]

(it's actually 'where' since you've pointed out other's typos this is fair play)[/QUOTE]

It is and I stand corrected.

[QUOTE] [b]Sheer Brass Neck wrote:[/b]

Prove it. Give me five examples.[/QUOTE]

That's actually an interesting topic, which I was thinking about this morning. Now, as to 'prove' it, I can't, because, to be fair, nobody can actually prove anything. Can we prove Freddie sang the lead vocals on We Are the Champions? Certainly, the voice sounds like him, but how can we prove it wasn't a sound-alike? Credits point at him but how can we prove they're not lying? Of course, that's an extreme case, but it strengthens my point that what constitutes 'proving' cannot be 'proved.'

[QUOTE] [b]Sheer Brass Neck wrote:[/b]

I don't think think Brian could write the drum part for Sweet Lady. [/QUOTE]

Of course he could. Not being a drummer doesn't disable you from writing drum parts, just like not being an actor doesn't disable you from writing good scripts, or not being a mummified corpse doesn't disable you from studying the Ancient Egyptians and be excellent at it.

[QUOTE] [b]Sheer Brass Neck wrote:[/b]

Which of us is certain? [/QUOTE]

Read my point about Fred and Champions.

So, this is what I think (note the use of the verb 'to think') happened to the arrangements per song, based on my experience. Obviously there might be several mistakes on the list below but it's far more than mere speculation and guesswork.

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QUEEN: For this album they were quite collaborative (sans John, who wasn't even there when most of the songs were written), so I reckon arrangements were more balanced.

* Keep Yourself Alive: Brian probably wrote all the guitar and bass parts himself; as for drums, it's more likely that Roger tried out different beats and fills and then Brian chose the one he liked the best (same for the solo). Backing vocals? Judging by their style (they start off unison and then divide), it's more the kind of thing Brian did than the kind of thing Freddie or Roger did.

* Doing All Right: Brian wrote guitar, bass, piano and vocal parts. For drums, my guess is the same as on KYA.

* Great King Rat: A more collaborative approach but not in the sense of delegating Brian the guitar parts and Roger the drum parts, etc. Instead, it seems that they were all (sans John, who wasn't there when the song was written) discussing all. Freddie sang some of the solo bits in one of the rough takes, which at the end of the day doesn't prove anything though.

* My Fairy King: Freddie directed everything, open to ideas the others had if they fitted the song.

* Liar: Similar to GKR. I suspect the ending fanfare on guitars was arranged (and composed, chord-progression-wise) by Dr May.

* Night Comes Down: As it was also written in the studio, it was more of a case of all of them (sans Freddie) trying out things, jamming, etc., and then Brian sitting at the driver's seat and giving it some final shape.

* Modern Times Rock 'n' Roll: Roger wrote the drum part, the bass line, the piano part, the vocal harmonies and the rhythm guitar part. The one bit Brian most likely wrote was the solo.

* Jesus: Fred wrote the parts for piano, bass, vocals and rhythm guitars. For drums, it'd have made sense for him to come up with the basic beat and then let Roger add his own fills (especially on the demo), same for Brian's guitar solos.

* Seven Seas of Rhye: A bit of a jam in the end, so it was more improvised.

* Mad the Swine: The solo is scored in a way that doesn't quite match Freddie's style as an arranger, but it totally matches Brian, that speaks volumes.

------------

TBC.

But there are exceptions
As we know Freddie took over both radio ga ga
And it's a kind of magic, which were both credited to Roger.so in those cases we know Roger did not do all parts all instruments ,as Freddie changed everything to what we hear on the record.
Keep yourself alive always lyrically I imagined it as Freddie's words, they suit him so much as if there from his mind.

QUEEN II:

* Procession: Brian wrote everything.

* Father to Son: Brian had the capacity to write both the drum and bass parts even though he didn't play them himself. As for piano and guitars, he both wrote them and played them. I think the only bit of the song Brian didn't arrange was the backing vocals in the break, everything else was first in his brain then brought to life by the band.

* White Queen: Similar case. Freddie sang the harmonies but Brian arranged them. John and Roger played the bass and drum parts but Brian wrote them, IMO.... by the way on my previous list I forgot Son and Daughter ... Brian wrote guitar and bass parts on that one (according to my estimation) and drums were arranged in a similar way to the other Brian songs on that album.

* Some Day One Day: Similar to White Queen.

* Loser in the End: Roger wrote everything except in the end which is more improvised.

* Ogre Battle: Freddie wrote the riffs for bass and guitar as well as the drum parts in the main sections. The interlude is more improvised and I don't think some of those overdubs were 'written' as much as they were serendipitously added.

* Master-Stroke: That's one solo that sounds to my ears more Freddie-esque than Brian-esque. Of course Brian played it, but it sounds more like the kind of thing Freddie would compose and then give Brian to play. Same for bass and drums, and of course what Freddie played himself.

* Nevermore: Freddie arranged everything, although he might have given John some freedom to semi-improvise on the second iteration of the verse and give it a more dynamic feel.

* Black Queen: The first solo sounds much more like the kind of thing Brian would write, than like the kind of thing Freddie would write. Other guitar parts, though, (e.g., the fanfare after the slow section) are the other way around IMO. Freddie probably wrote the drum and bass parts as well as all the vocal harmonies (both what he sang and what the others sang).

* Funny How Love Is: More improvised, by all of them, partly.

* Seven Seas of Rhye: The solo is more Brian-esque than Freddie-esque, as are the bass overdubs and runs. The glissando on the backing vocals was most likely arranged by Freddie, but inspired by the way Brian and Tim used to do it in Smile.

* See What a Fool I've Been: Most likely, John and Roger just tried out different parts and then Brian offered suggestions but that was it.

TBC...

[QUOTE] [b]Queenfansunite wrote:[/b]

But there are exceptions[/QUOTE]

Of course there are.

It'd be incredibly ridiculous to think that 100% of Queen songs have 100% of instrumental and vocal parts 100% written by the author of the song.

It'd be also incredibly ridiculous to think that 100% of Queen songs have the bass-line 100% written by John, the guitar parts 100% written by Brian, the piano and vocal parts 100% written by Freddie and the drum and percussion parts 100% written by Roger.

You seem to be saying that whoever is credited wrote every part vocals bass drums guitar piano triangle etc for the most part. But I did hear the band say that basically whoever wrote the lyrics is how the credit ends up with the person.
They did not say everything every part was the reason, just the lyrics basically.

Do you think its true that even before drum machines
that Brian would write drum parts?
I have never ever ever seen Brian sat at the drums!
He it too tall for the drums isn't he?
My thoughts are someone comes in either with a bare idea and they all work on it, but whoever had the idea gets the lyric and the song credit.
Or someone came in with a master plan, like Bohemian Rap for example and he shows everyone what he wants and they do it.

SHA:

* Brighton Rock: Brian probably wrote everything, including the phenomenal backing vocals. He didn't play drums or bass but he wrote those parts. He was more than capable of doing that.

* Killer Queen: Basic layout is Freddie's, for all of them and their role, and the inclusion of the more flamboyant details such as the snare roll followed by a triangle, etc. The other three probably suggested some ideas and if Freddie liked them they were included, for instance the way the guitar solo's harmonised in bell-effect.

* Tenement Funster: The solo's probably Brian, everything else Roger wrote, including what he didn't play.

* Flick of the Wrist: Freddie wrote all parts for all instruments.

* Lily of the Valley: Ditto.

* Now I'm Here: Ditto (Brian instead of Freddie). He didn't play bass or drums but he wrote those parts, and everything else he both wrote and played.

* In the Lap of the Gods: Mostly Freddie though the outro is more improvised. Those guitar harmonies in the intro were obviously played by Brian, but Freddie had more than enough capacity and creativity to write them.

* Stone Cold Crazy: A three-way split between Freddie, Roger and Brian.

* Dear Friends: All instruments (i.e., the only one there) and backing vocals were arranged and performed by Brian Harold May.

* Bring Back That Leroy Brown: Similar to KQ.

* Misfire: John arranged the drums though he didn't play them, and arranged and played all the guitar and bass parts except the guitar fills in the end, which Brian both arranged and played by the sound of it. As for harmonies, probably a collaboration between the three of them (Brian was in the hospital).

* She Makes Me: Brian didn't play bass or drums but he was more than capable of arranging them.

* In the Lap of the Gods ... Revisited: Fred wrote everything IMO.

[QUOTE] [b]Queenfansunite wrote:[/b]

I did hear the band say that basically whoever wrote the lyrics is how the credit ends up with the person.
[/QUOTE]

Quite the opposite: in the DOOL docu, Fred's shown on video saying that on his own songs he would write what Roger would do and what Brian would do.

[QUOTE] [b]Queenfansunite wrote:[/b]

They did not say everything every part was the reason, just the lyrics basically.
[/QUOTE]

They did: in the DOOL docu, Fred's shown on video saying that on his own songs he would write what Roger would do and what Brian would do.

[QUOTE] [b]Queenfansunite wrote:[/b]

Do you think its true that even before drum machines
that Brian would write drum parts?[/QUOTE]

Yes.

[QUOTE] [b]Queenfansunite wrote:[/b]

I have never ever ever seen Brian sat at the drums![/QUOTE]

Being a drummer is not mandatory to be able to arrange drum parts, the same way being a singer is not mandatory to write vocal parts, being an actor isn't mandatory to write scripts, being a plant is not mandatory to be a botanist.

[QUOTE] [b]Sebastian wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]Queenfansunite wrote:[/b]

I did hear the band say that basically whoever wrote the lyrics is how the credit ends up with the person.
[/QUOTE]

Quite the opposite: in the DOOL docu, Fred's shown on video saying that on his own songs he would write what Roger would do and what Brian would do.

[QUOTE] [b]Queenfansunite wrote:[/b]

They did not say everything every part was the reason, just the lyrics basically.
[/QUOTE]

They did: in the DOOL docu, Fred's shown on video saying that on his own songs he would write what Roger would do and what Brian would do.

[QUOTE] [b]Queenfansunite wrote:[/b]

Do you think its true that even before drum machines
that Brian would write drum parts?[/QUOTE]

Yes.

[QUOTE] [b]Queenfansunite wrote:[/b]

I have never ever ever seen Brian sat at the drums![/QUOTE]

Being a drummer is not mandatory to be able to arrange drum parts, the same way being a singer is not mandatory to write vocal parts, being an actor isn't mandatory to write scripts, being a plant is not mandatory to be a botanist.[/QUOTE]

Goes to show, such great talent!
All of them musical virtuosos.
So from a musical standpoint, In the same spirit of music theory etc, what track would you offer as impressive to you, if that is possible making a choice, maybe it's rare and will be something more simple and brilliant rather than complicated?
Can you say?

I think 'Teo Torriatte' is a beautiful one, and the arrangement is so immaculate. I'm sure Brian was more than capable of writing the bass part and the drum part (and the tambourine part for the middle eight), as well as all the backing vocals... and of course he arranged and played all guitars and keyboards. A masterpiece.

[QUOTE] [b]Sheer Brass Neck wrote:[/b]

^^^

Sebastian, i think your research and musical knowledge is sensational so I am not against you. I think you're trying too hard to be the smartest guy in the room here. You posted "Queen belonged, overall, to the kind of bands were the creator of the song would usually either write all parts for all instruments, or write most parts for most instruments and then decide on which external suggestions to take and which ones to discard." I didn't post that "Queen belonged, overall, to the kind of bands were (it's actually 'where' since you've pointed out other's typos this is fair play) the creator of the song would seldom write all parts for the instruments and then ask for suggestions on which parts to add." So you are suggesting that Queen, "overall, would usually write all parts for instruments..." Prove it. Give me five examples. I'll help you out with the first one. Roger said Brian pushed him to play a certain style for Sweet Lady. However, that doesn't mean that Brian "wrote all parts for instruments." Would you say he did as it relates to Sweet Lady? If you did, we'll agree to disagree on what writing parts means. I don't think think Brian could write the drum part for Sweet Lady. I think he could say "steady kick with the drum, aggressive hi hat and snare" whereas Roger may have envisioned a straight 3/4 beat. Same thing as the bass at the end of SASS. I don't think Brian wrote it (he had the ability too) but I think he gave John guidance to play out over a melodic line. Which of us is certain? [/QUOTE]

Good post. makes a lot of sense.

If Queen did work as has been sugested, someone presenting a demo of all the parts of a song in place. doesnt that relegate the rest of the band to being session musicians playing on any particular song written by another band member.

The evidence we have, snippets of interviews etc, points towards a band member coming in with lyrics and maybe sometimes only a chord sequence which the band then fashion into a song.

I still dont believe that there major writing technique was to come to the studio with a fully formed demo for the others to learn and then play.

[QUOTE] [b]Vocal harmony wrote:[/b]

If Queen did work as has been sugested, someone presenting a demo of all the parts of a song in place.
[/QUOTE]

That's not the only way to do it.

[QUOTE] [b]Vocal harmony wrote:[/b]

doesnt that relegate the rest of the band to being session musicians playing on any particular song written by another band member.
[/QUOTE]

It doesn't.

[QUOTE] [b]Vocal harmony wrote:[/b]

The evidence we have, snippets of interviews etc, points towards a band member coming in with lyrics and maybe sometimes only a chord sequence which the band then fashion into a song.
[/QUOTE]

Not really.

[QUOTE] [b]Vocal harmony wrote:[/b]

I still dont believe that there major writing technique was to come to the studio with a fully formed demo for the others to learn and then play.

[/QUOTE]

I didn't say they'd come with a fully formed demo. I said they'd more often than not write all parts for all instruments, and I still stand by that.

TTero/ let us cling together:

I think I agree, that song is amazing, and never fails to move me when I listen to it. It is a masterpiece, but is made by Freddie's vocals, as well as the music. It is a such a beautiful emotionally powerful lyric and tune that it really is in a way disappointing that Freddie himself did not write it, as it seems to fit his style so perfectly.
All praise to Brian's songwriting skills
the same with Save me & Las palabros de amour & who wants live Forever!!!

So true that Queen were the strength of each member. Such a showcase and compliment to the whole talent of each member, each able to bring for each other and use each others talents within the band.

and ironic that Brian is thought of as the real hard Rocker so much, yet wrote such Queen Epic ballads, and was so in tune with what suited Freddie also.

Brian and Freddie so much the sound and songwriting style that made Queen so recognisable?
Freddie's vocals Brian's Guitars, like John and Paul, but the harmonies nothing without Roger, nor the heavy rock, or the later big hits , magic, ga ga days of our lives .
And Queen would be one track , one direction , one genre , if it were not for the diversity of John's songwriting influence on the bands repertoire, which enabled Queen to become a none genre band and made them more universal:
Another one bite's the dust / under pressure, imagine Queen never duetting with Bowie.

Those two are my favourite male artists, Queen and Bowie, unthinkable a nightmare , that they would have never done anything together , yet so strange they did. I wonder , will the unknown Jackson Mercury/ Queen material become as legendary?
Victory, a rocker a power ballad a slow ballad a dance song?
The title is all so Queen, like Champions.
VICTORY!

Everything that made Queen so great a band, was all of them.