Israel: The Double Standard

"blockades no NOT stop humanitarian aid - they stop weapons"

Patently false. http://www.icco-international.com/int/news/news/humanitarian-aid-in-gaza-is-impossible/

"Hamas has launched 15,000,000 rockets at Israel since 2001 - that's THREE every day!!!! would YOU like to live like that? Moreover, would YOU put up with it? or expect your leaders to respond?"

False reasoning - nobody is denying that Hamas is a terrorist organization that acts like a terrorist organization. The question is if that justifies military operation resulting in 85% civilian casualties. The answer is no, international law forbids such operations as crimes against humanity. London Charter of the International Military Tribunal, section 6, paragraph 6(c).

"There is no balance between Israel defending itself and a terrorist organisation hiding rockets in schools and using innocents as human shields. If Hamas stopped NOW they'd have instant peace. They won't - because peace is not their objective - eradicating Israel is."


No, there is no balance. There is also no balance between a terrorist organization armed with third-rate weapons and the second-most professional and heavily armed military in the world. Israel has the capabilities of using tactics against Hamas that would lead to far, far fewer civilian casualties. They refuse to use those tactics because it would risk losing more soldiers. Your claim that instant peace would follow if Hamas stopped now is also untrue - the far-right fringe parties the Netanyahu-coalition relies on have an agenda of expansionism and will not accept the borders of Israel agreed by international treaty. They would continue occupation and harassment, deliberately provoking more fights.

As for the rockets, as you know very well, or would if you bothered informing yourself, the UN operates some 150 schools in Palestinian territories, and if weapons are discovered on a site, this school is immediately closed, no refugees are housed there and it is reported to the Israeli government that the school will not be used as a shelter. Why is it that you refuse to believe UN sources?

I've so far ignored your personal attacks, but there is one that I will not let pass. "I don't hear you banging a drum against Assad's massacre of 150,000 Syrians - half of which are said to be innocent civilians". Now if this were a face-to-face discussion, this would have been the point where I, and I mean no hyperbole here, would have punched you in the mouth. Literally. I don't care how big and bulky you might be, for this I would have hit you, and hit you hard. I have been an outspoken critic of Assad for years, and I have called for action against his genocidal regime from the START of the war, which is also when I emphasized the need to support the Kurds, for both of which I was accused of supporting Islamic extremists. I demand you apologize for this outrageous insult.

Casper, it's wrong of you to say I have made personal attacks on you - i haven't.
secondly, i genuinely haven't seen anyone condemn Assad on this site - perhaps i was away on hols or something when such a thread rose and died - if you're offended, I'm sorry. I honestly have not seen YOU or anyone bang that particular drum.

Let's BOTH admit one thing about this middle east situation, like Northern Ireland, and every other bit of hate-filled dispute in the world - it's rooted in religion - the cause of all evil (ironic when you consider that God comes from the word GOOD). My point: people who take the "get off my land" approach seldom understand the complexities of these issues.
As most of these issues arose 500 yrs or more ago - there's no one alive who genuinely understands the cause and so, by consequence cannot have a cure.
I'm 52, I've been aware of the Northern Ireland and Middle East issues almost all of my life - certainly form the first time a primary school teacher explained what war is. These conflicts will NOT be fixed while one religious group vows to wipe out another. The only response I would say to that? Hamas will achieve nothing with rocket fire (and surely after 10+ years and 15,000 rockets later - most fools either ideological or otherwise would've realised this.
You live by the sword? expect to die by it. - Problem is - that's exactly what Hamas want and believe - religious martyrdom.

[QUOTE] [b]Jefffab1995 wrote:[/b]

Like cutting support to Israel we supply them with ammunition and money two things which make this disaster possible.[/QUOTE]
and at the same time, are YOU planning to cut financial support and weaponry to Hamas/Palestine?
Or are you allowing Hamas to continue to be armed by Iran - who are funded by Syria who in turn receive arms from Russia...but that's all ok with you? Appears your not so much pro-peace as anti-Israel - at whatever cost.

Israel claims to be a victim brenski but they victimize palestine and honestly if Israel was destroyed the east would be a better place

[QUOTE] [b]Jefffab1995 wrote:[/b]

Israel claims to be a victim brenski but they victimize palestine and honestly if Israel was destroyed the east would be a better place[/QUOTE]

you're a f**king disgrace!!!! note the word disgrace contains "race" - and you are overtly racist. - please don't reply to this - there's nothing you can say that mitigate your comment above. Also please note - i've quoted you, so that when you go in and edit your initial comment, we'll still have it preserved here. You call Israel "zionist pigs" - but the real problem is people sharing views like yours. If i was related to you, I'd be ashamed and sickened.

Barb, is there any way of banning this guy? or are we now endorsing racism on these boards?

Im not being racist

[QUOTE] [b]brENsKi wrote:[/b]

Casper, it's wrong of you to say I have made personal attacks on you - i haven't.
secondly, i genuinely haven't seen anyone condemn Assad on this site - perhaps i was away on hols or something when such a thread rose and died - if you're offended, I'm sorry. I honestly have not seen YOU or anyone bang that particular drum.

Let's BOTH admit one thing about this middle east situation, like Northern Ireland, and every other bit of hate-filled dispute in the world - it's rooted in religion - the cause of all evil (ironic when you consider that God comes from the word GOOD). My point: people who take the "get off my land" approach seldom understand the complexities of these issues.
As most of these issues arose 500 yrs or more ago - there's no one alive who genuinely understands the cause and so, by consequence cannot have a cure.
I'm 52, I've been aware of the Northern Ireland and Middle East issues almost all of my life - certainly form the first time a primary school teacher explained what war is. These conflicts will NOT be fixed while one religious group vows to wipe out another. The only response I would say to that? Hamas will achieve nothing with rocket fire (and surely after 10+ years and 15,000 rockets later - most fools either ideological or otherwise would've realised this.
You live by the sword? expect to die by it. - Problem is - that's exactly what Hamas want and believe - religious martyrdom.[/QUOTE]

Apology accepted. There's no need lecturing me on the complexities of the issue - I am a trained historian, I doubt there are many people on this forum with a better understanding of the complex history behind, essentially, all long-term conflicts in the world.

"You live by the sword? expect to die by it. - Problem is - that's exactly what Hamas want and believe - religious martyrdom."

It's HALF the problem. The other half is that the people dying by the sword are, according to UN observers, 85%+ civilians, many of them children. That is not acceptable under ANY circumstance, including when the side wielding the sword is Israel. The holocaust is unforgivable, but using it as a shield to protect outrageous war crimes (the deliberate targeting of areas with significant civilian population, even in order to hit military targets, is a war crime under the Charter of the International Military Tribunal, Section II, article 6 subs B and C) is frankly perverted - the mistreatment of one group of people can NEVER be used to justify the mistreatment of another group.

If you shrug your shoulders at, as we speak, over 1400 civilians killed by the Israeli armed forces, you are quite simply not a decent person. It's that simple. You cannot be a good person and accept the mass-murder of civilians, it is not possible.

[QUOTE] [b]Jefffab1995 wrote:[/b]

Israel claims to be a victim brenski but they victimize palestine and honestly if Israel was destroyed the east would be a better place[/QUOTE]

That's just as stupid as the neo-fascist pigs who say that the middle east would be a better place if all Islamic nations were destroyed. Destruction is part of the problem, not part of the solution. Israel is no less (despite what brenski says) but also no more guilty of the conflict itself than its neighbors. They ARE the most guilty party in the mass-murder of civilians this past month, though, but that is not reason to apply mass-murder of civilians on them - that would be a Likud-reasoning.

I will say this, and I will stand behind it: there are, quite literally, NO decent people in the Knesset or the government for Likud, HaBayit HaYehudi (which is an absolute far-right apartheid party), Yisrael Beiteinu (neo-conservative, militarist and discriminates against non-Ashkenazim Jews), Shas (essentially a Jewish-Israeli version of the party in charge of Iran). These parties all have financial interests in keeping the conflict up and maintaining a state of permanent war and mobilization.

If there is going to be a lasting solution to the conflict, Hamas has to be ousted. But also, Likud and the far-right (religious) fringe-parties have to go. Israel only stands a chance of a lasting peace if it elects a Labor Party, Hatnuah/Kadima, Meretz, Hadash coalition. The militarist parties will NEVER accept a permanent peace settlement because it would cost THEM (not Israel, but THEM personally) billions.

[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b]

If you shrug your shoulders at, as we speak, over 1400 civilians killed by the Israeli armed forces, you are quite simply not a decent person. It's that simple. You cannot be a good person and accept the mass-murder of civilians, it is not possible.[/QUOTE]

This is what, it seems, the majority of the western world is doing. They've managed to ignore the plight of the Palestinian people because a) they're convinced they are heathens of the wrong religion, and b) mainstream media is almost completely on the side of the oppressor, still barely talking about the illegal settlements that are at the root of this conflict and almost never posting photos of the thousands of injured children, yet posting a photo of the one missing Israeli soldier smiling, effectively dehumanizing one side. If that isn't bias, I don't know what is.

There is so much Israeli propaganda. They insist Hamas is using women and children as human shields in front of weapons in schools. In reality - the UN operates about 150 schools in Palestinian territories, and if weapons are discovered therein the school is immediately shut down and then reported to the Israeli government. In other words, they know exactly which places contain civilians seeking refuge and which don't. Despite this, they bomb schools and continue to throw the self-defense card, and the majority still drink the kool aid.

This complete disregard for human life is nothing short of deplorable. But alas, we have to brace ourselves for more faux outrage and no actual action from the international community.

Well a ceasefire is happening so palestine is going to get fucked again

The only good thing I've detected over the past few days is that European people, European media and now, finally, even some European politicians are becoming more critical of Israel's war and especially its tactics. That's not much of a comfort when so many innocent people have already died, though.

I am also going to pull rank here as having considerably more experience in the field of military history than most by stating that I know of no army that has historically been considered to be on the 'right' side in a conflict that inflicted such a high proportion of civilian casualties with the sole exception of the, highly controversial, fire-bombings/nuclear bombings of WWII, admitted by allied planners themselves to have been a war crime. Even the guerilla-operations in the west during the American Civil War didn't get close to this kind of massacring, not even in the bitter year 1864 when a number of Union commanders decided to fight terrorism with terrorism.

I've breezed through this thread (I'm sorry I didn't read it all, too much happening here) and need to add - for the record - that not all Americans support Israel unconditionally. I sure as hell don't. We are all united, I believe, in our belief that Israel has the right to protect itself from Hamas and any other terrorist group or attack. But we are not, all, blindly waving pom-poms as they kill untold numbers of innocent Palestinians.

I just had this conversation with someone, and it didn't end well as the person I spoke with insisted Israel had the right and the obligation to destroy all threats to itself by any means possible - to hell with the death of innocents, to hell with history showing their method a failure. I compared that with what's been happening in Chicago - where crime is out of control. Forty-plus people were murdered in one weekend there. All were gunned down. All random cases of violence.

What if we see the Chicago gangs like Hamas. The cops are the Israeli military. We all agree the gangs are terrorizing innocents. They've shown no mercy, killing people of all ages, including the very old and the very young. To protect the population, the cops have to take down these thugs. It's mayhem. Thugs are shooting cops, cops are shooting thugs... and then thugs grab an elderly woman off the street and use her as a shield. Others run into a playground and hide behind the children there. They storm a hospital and duck behind patients in the ER. Should the cops keep shooting? To hell with the people there? Just spray the place with bullets until no one is left standing? Innocent deaths are worth it if it means thugs are taken out? What about ISIS? Should we just bomb Iraq, Syria and now Lebanon, until there's nothing and no one left so we can be certain the threat is gone? Because, you know, wiping out an entire terrorist organization will, of course, guarantee the death of the ideology that fueled it. And of course, the slaughter of innocents would never turn moderates into extremists.

No matter the threat, it's not okay to obliterate an entire wedding party, for example, while targeting a single terrorist. No matter the threat.

Seriously. Aren't there experts working on this? After decades of facing the same threats and carrying out the same failed actions, shouldn't someone, somewhere have come up with a better way to handle the situation by now? Like... maybe working to win over the people so they turn against the terrorists and their ideology? It wouldn't happen overnight, obviously, but over time it could. I know I'm over-simplifying things here but we know *this* isn't working. And yet innocent lives are still lost.

Rinse and repeat.

[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b]Apology accepted. There's no need lecturing me on the complexities of the issue - I am a trained historian, I doubt there are many people on this forum with a better understanding of the complex history behind, essentially, all long-term conflicts in the world. [/QUOTE]
now i think it's time for YOU to apologise. - that ^^^ is the single most patronizing insulting thing you could say. I was not lecturing you, i was stating facts.
whatever, YOUR studies it doesn't mean you are better qualified than the many lecturers/authorities on this subject who state quite clearly that they don't fully understand the complexity of the situation.
and, as a (possibly) intelligent observer - i am just as capable as you are of witnessing the propaganda on BOTH sides and formulating my own opinion. - Mine is based on friends and family who herald from a similar background - Ireland - with 500+ years of post-Cromwellian tyranny, and rhetoric on both sides, struggles, religious wars, uprisings and oppression. throw in forty years of British inflicted famine and i think you'll find I have a fairly decent perspective to offer.
Trained historian or not - your tone was patronizing.

[QUOTE] [b]brENsKi wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b]Apology accepted. There's no need lecturing me on the complexities of the issue - I am a trained historian, I doubt there are many people on this forum with a better understanding of the complex history behind, essentially, all long-term conflicts in the world. [/QUOTE]
now i think it's time for YOU to apologise. - that ^^^ is the single most patronizing insulting thing you could say. I was not lecturing you, i was stating facts.
whatever, YOUR studies it doesn't mean you are better qualified than the many lecturers/authorities on this subject who state quite clearly that they don't fully understand the complexity of the situation.
and, as a (possibly) intelligent observer - i am just as capable as you are of witnessing the propaganda on BOTH sides and formulating my own opinion. - Mine is based on friends and family who herald from a similar background - Ireland - with 500+ years of post-Cromwellian tyranny, and rhetoric on both sides, struggles, religious wars, uprisings and oppression. throw in forty years of British inflicted famine and i think you'll find I have a fairly decent perspective to offer.
Trained historian or not - your tone was patronizing.

[/QUOTE]

Brenski stop just fucking stop!

[QUOTE] [b]Jefffab1995 wrote:[/b]Brenski stop just fucking stop![/QUOTE]
who do YOU think you are?
i have every right to my opinion - just because it opposes yours DOES NOT make YOU correct.

my own position? during the height of the IRA bombing campaign - in the aftermath of the B'ham pub bombings - my father was rounded up with every other Irish man in the city of Brum who was of "an age" - he was the guest of WM Police finest for 36 hrs and treated like sh*t....so I think I KNOW and have an insight into this and similar situations.

Now tell me - what gives YOU the right to tell me to "just fucking stop" ? apart from your anti-semitic and downright racist outbursts - YOU have offered NOTHING to this discussion.