The Passion of Christ

Well it seems that the debate dwindled down to abortion.

As a woman, I express the desire to not to have children, due to personal experiences. Still, I consider what its inside of a woman's womb is considered a life.

However, the abortion is a very touchy subject. One's idea of life inside a woman's body, can be another's idea of a gestating creature inside a woman's womb is not alive until its outside, and breathes in life for the first time.

As far as I believe, a woman can do whatever she wants with her body. It's her own body. I and no one else owns it. If she wants to abort it for whatever reason, that's her decision. That's why I cannot grip religion, and their crusades in front of abortion clinics to stop women from getting abortions. One should never drown anyone with their opinions.
I used to work in a gyn/ob clinic a few years ago, it used to make me sad and angry to my stomach that young girls, as young as 11 or 12 pregnant. Their cases were either from rape to having sex because they wanted to. Some of them aborted, some of them had the child. They learnt from their mistakes, some of them didn't. Still, I never did judge them for their mistakes or choices.

It all comes down to how you were brought up, also how you were educated. We form our opinions based on education, and experience. However, beating up someone because they think that whats inside a woman's belly isnt a life isnt respectful. People should learn to respect other people's opinions, while still voicing your own. Lets all about respect people. Lets learn how to use it.

"A line has to be drawn somewhere. You cannot accept one group of people(gays) and not another( polygamists, those who practic inncest and beastiality). The Church is using the Law of Nature to draw that line."

Just thought I'd mention that both polygamy and incest both occur frequently in nature. Hardly adds to your argument, does it?

While on the subject of what is "natural", are humans not borne of Nature? We are natural beings in the sense that we evolved alongside all other species we see today. So if homosexuality is found that in such a large portion of the human population, obviously natural selection hasn't wiped it out, as might be predicted by various models of population genetics. Knowing this, I don't see how you can say it is not natural.

Last time I checked Polygamist meant having multiple wives, and perhaps it might have something to do with incest, but I dont think beastiality enters into it.

Homosexuality is present in various animal species such as bees if im not mistaken.

Again, I'm still baffled that some think that polyamory has to do with beastiality...as if you can marry your dog, although I think it must've happened...ughh.

I believe he was listing the three (bestiality, polygamy, and incest) as separate other "natural" no-no's. He just didn't do it very clearly. But of course they have nothing to do with one another.

And no species of bee that I know of is homosexual.

And btw, polygamy is generally referred to as "polygyny" in other animal species, in case someone was about to leap on me for incorrect use of the word...

What is nature exactly? Is nature equivalent to God? When you talk of something being natural, do you mean to say it is God's will or God's law? The reason I ask is because God created homosexuals. He also created heterosexuals, good and bad, murderers and saints, the mentally handicapped as well as the geniuses etc. Isn't all that part of nature too? If you say homosexuality is unnatural then you're saying God made a mistake. If he is all-powerful, all-knowing, and omnipotent, why did God create homosexuals? The only way for you (and the Catholic Church) to get around this essential contradiction is for you to claim that homosexuality is a choice rather than a product of nature, or a "mistake" of nature, which means that God is fallible. The former is perhaps why you equate homosexuality with bestiality. It is not only insulting, but it is intellectually untenable as you are starting off with dogma/belief and then arranging the facts to suit that dogma. This is why it is almost impossible to have an intelligent discussion with someone who uses the Bible or the Church to make sense of his/her surroundings. Everything that we see around us is "nature" or natural - how we interpret or judge that is a product of the culture that exists at any given time. The Bible is a product of culture, or numerous cultures, since it is a translation. The difference between religion and science, or at least the 2000 year unchanging dogma of the Catholic Church you seem to admire, is that science and scientists admit mistakes and learn from them whereas religion and religious dogmatists tend not to change their beliefs even when there is much evidence that contradicts them. You might call it faith, but I call it close minded. You might also argue that you are entitled to your beliefs but my position is that when your beliefs are used as arguments to infringe on other people's rights (such as homosexuals) then you have crossed a line from someone legitimately expressing their opinion to someone who needs to be exposed and opposed.

If a woman is shot and survives, but the 1 month old fetus dies as a result, has a murder been committed?

"Listen, you cant post here titles of countless of books which attack the Church. I on the other hand can post books that support the Church."

And your point is? The ones that support the church are usually written by right-wing Christians, while the ones that tend to veer towards the "thinking" side of things are usually written by religious philosophers. I'll give you two guesses which side I'll choose, and the first guess doesn't count.

I said "usually" written by philisophers, because a famous Baptist preacher wrote a book called "Why Christianity Must Change Or Die". By far the most fascinating religious-oriented book I ever picked up and read. Calling all Catholics! Take this message... a message for you.

"The statement above is the most IGNORANT thing a person can say. You or anyone else by no means have the right to eliminate life! Young people do not want to raise a child because they are either irresponsible ( like they were when they got knocked up), or they dont want to go on social assistance because it emabarassing."

And those are the only situations this can happen in? What if the girl is raped, and forced to have the child of her rapist? I think YOU are the one who is too ignorant to put yourself in that poor girl's shoes to realize that she has the right to do whatever she chooses to do. I cannot believe that people can go so low and use their religious beliefs to tell other people what they should and shouldn't do with your lives. Every person fully against abortion can rot in hell.

"You talk about labour pains. So what? You will kill a baby just so a woman won't go through labour?"

Well, at least I now know you aren't female. Labour pains are probably the worst pain a woman will experience in her lifetime. God, are you ever a sick human being for looking the other way. If a fetus is killed within the first four or five months of the pregnancy, it has not yet developed nerves, and will not feel any pain.

"Are you going to tell me that homosexuality is natural?"

Doesn't it strike anyone here as mildly ironic that Krowa is posting at a Queen noticeboard, and he's openly homophobic?

As for your question, I'll reply with a question. Why does everything unnatural (according to you Catholics) have to be wrong? Once again, "it is God's will" will not be an acceptable answer. C'mon, let's see what you've got.

"Having gay sex will not accomplish any of that."

Not everyone wants to procreate. Why should every person on this planet have to fall in the same steps as history and feel obligated to procreate? Those who do it should do it because they want a child of their own to love, not because of obligation! Some people see sex as an art, and do it to the fullest. Respect that they think differently than you, and move on. They have endured persecution from people like you throughout their lives, but you seem to have no problem with that.

"What if I said I was into beastiality?"

I'd respect that you made that decision. As long as you don't hurt the animals, do whatever you'd like to them. They will become your problem, not mine.

"polygamists, those who practic inncest and beastiality"

Uhmm, do you even know what polygamy means? Judging by that scatter of words, you do not!

"Now you tell me I am not open-minded? Form what you have been telling me, your idea of open mindedness is to accept everything that is part of our culture."

I never once said that. Don't twist my words. Again, you're attacking the person, and not the problem! I never automatically except everything in our culture. If I did that, then I would support things like 9/11 and the war in Isreal. What a stupid comment to make, Krowa. I expected much more from you, even as a Catholic. I didn't think you people could stoop that low.

You think you're open-minded, but in reality, you're open-minded within the boundaries of your church. Anything that is in contradiction with your

" You may have replied to 5% of the things I've had to say; the 5% which you can use your religious beliefs as your arguments, as you clearly have no other method of argument."

Are you kidding me Guitar Hero? Everytime you post something, I always copy it and reply to your argument. Try reading the message bard man.

"Uhmm, do you even know what polygamy means? Judging by that scatter of words, you do not!"

I will admit, I made an error with my punctuation. All I tried to do was list three things; Polygamy, those who practice incest, and beastiality. By the way, Chantel was kind enough to clear that misunderstanding up a few post ago. Had you been reading what others have to say, other than you, you would have noted the clarification.

"Doesn't it strike anyone here as mildly ironic that Krowa is posting at a Queen noticeboard, and he's openly homophobic?"

Listen Guitar Hero, now you are personally attacking me. Which is no surprise because that is the only thing you can resort to at this point. Also, me being a fan of Queen and their extrodinay talent and work, goes on to contradict your statement.


"And your point is? The ones that support the church are usually written by right-wing Christians, while the ones that tend to veer towards the "thinking" side of things are usually written by religious philosophers. I'll give you two guesses which side I'll choose, and the first guess doesn't count."

Now you see Guitar, I thought you were better than that. I can definitely sense desperation in your writing. You don't know all the authors and thier politicl views. And even if I choose one that is "right-winged", you will probably choose some left-wing liberal. This issue about authors and books is relative; what's good for you may not be good for me and vice versa.

"What if the girl is raped, and forced to have the child of her rapist? I think YOU are the one who is too ignorant to put yourself in that poor girl's shoes to realize that she has the right to do whatever she chooses to do. I cannot believe that people can go so low and use their religious beliefs to tell other people what they should and shouldn't do with your lives."

This goes beyond religious beliefs. I do not think you need to be religious to value human life. And the whole idea of baby not feeling? Now that is beyond RIDICULOUS! If a blind person can't see, do we have the right to laugh at them when they cant find they way around. After all, they won't see whos making fun of them! Just because pain and suffering is not staring at you right in your face, doesn't mean it's not there!

"Every person fully against abortion can rot in hell."

I thought you were better than this. You want to have a sound argument when you cannot even respect the opinions of others, what ever it may be? You dare to preach tolerance towards others when you can't even tolerate others and their views. Now that's shallow my friend!

And by the way, I am open-minded, I'm open-minded to change. But a person has to do more convincing to sway my opinion. After all, we do not know everything, and it is possible that someone in our lives can provide an answer and show us the meaning. But you are obviously not doing that because your way of justifying abortion is because it is painful for the woman. And if the girl gets raped, she has 72 hours to go to hospital, where they provide a rape cleaning kit. Liek you said before in your previous post, "these aren't the middle ages". And I agree.

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"Chantel was kind enough to clear that misunderstanding up a few post ago."

Yes, I know. But a little pot-shot was on my mind, so I made it. I just thought I'd follow in your shoes and attack the person and not the problem, just this ONCE!

"now you are personally attacking me. Which is no surprise because that is the only thing you can resort to at this point."

Yes, you're right. I've spent this entire topic saying educated things about religion, and since you've ignored most of them, I've become rather frustrated with you, and I really don't know what to say anymore! For your convenience, here I've pasted everything you ignored, and now's your chance to properly reply to the following things:

1) (Paraphrased) The more right-wing the Christian, the less they feel they have to be educated about people different than them, because they feel all the more comforable with their faith.

2) "The church has progressed over the past 2000 years, and very little has remained the same! The style of worship hasn't changed much in the past couple hundred years, but 2000 years ago, there was no such thing as Catholicism. That was created much later on from the roots of Judaism."

3) Definition of "sin", and the proper translation. Refer to page 3, and the "prodigal son" story. On page 4, I explain myself a little better.

4) Mark 15:39 and the translation issues leading to questioning the origin of the trinity, page 3.

5) "Catholics believe they are born unclean, and they have to be continually forgiven of this so-called 'sin'." Also, "Catholics are taught that they will always be unclean and full of sin, no matter how hard they try to be the best they can be." I'm just curious of how someone can actually live like this.

6) "In the New Testament, it is said that women are to be subordinate, and not to do anything men do, or have a say in anything, because they do not have the right to. Therefore, any woman who is a true Christian cannot get a job. And any man who marries a woman who gets a job cannot be a true Christian. So technically, by scripture, these people all go to hell because they have forsaken the word."

7) Origin of the word "Christ" and the Q gospel, page 3.

8) "The bible is a collection of writings, from the time, that supposedly represented the best material; the material that would suit the religions. It's a collection of stories where somewhere deep within, there may have been a real event."

9) Re: Adam and Eve in the book of Genesis. "Their kids run off to get married, but who did they marry? Besides their parents, there was nobody else in existence! Unless they married each other, of course. So does that mean that the act of holy matrimony is based on the very first marriage, which was incest?"

10) "Several faiths (some obscure, but just as old as Christianity) have such stories in them, and many of the "virgin births" happened on the 25th of December as well. How many Christians know this, do you think?"

11) The church vs. change:

Because the church never changes, that leaves people NO room for opening their mind to change! This is the problem with the church! 1000-2000 year old morals just may not still work today, with the way society changes. For anything to work in today's culture, you have to change or at least modify yourself with the changes in culture. Otherwise, it crashes and burns. Yes, I'll agree that the church has gone outside of that little rule, but is it the best thing they can be doing? Leaving people closed-minded?"

12) Numbers, chapter 25. "God is thrilled with the act of murder, and encouraged it in masses, just because one group of people were persecuted by another. This is God's law?"

13) "What does stopping/continuing abortion have to do with money? Don't start talking about money. I think this would be a good time to remind everybody that the Catholic church brings in tens of millions of dollars, *untaxed dollars*, annually."

14) "No

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With all the posts by 'Guitar Hero' on this thread, he could have written a book longer than the Biblie.

And a better one...;-)