The Passion of Christ

:)

Back to the topic of abortion:

I posted this during dialog with an unpopular soul on this board so I doubt if it was read so here
is my take:

"I am for freedom of choice but feel that FOR ME MYSELF abortion would be wrong because
I do believe that life begins at the moment of conception.
She (a woman) already has the right to choose by being responsible and using prophylactics or
a diaphragm or the rhythm method or the damn pill or that shit they stick in your arm.

There are plenty of choices and if you boil it all down,

Really boil it down,

you would be able to see why some men are so pro choice and that would be to get them off
the damn fucking hook of being accountable for their fucking part in a conception.

All play but no responsibility.

Plus no hormonal imbalance because it is not happening to him.

It's all going on in her.

Don't you get it?

It lets the guy totally off the hook.

It's not about whether or not a woman has the right to choose what she wants.

You see.

People have be brilliantly brain washed to believe that."


Now on the subject of rape:
This is a tough one. I have a friend who has two children who are products of rape from a step
uncle. He had been raping her since the age of 11. He held a knife to her throat and threatened
to kill her if she told. She kept her mouth shut until she was impregnated at the age of 16. She
tried to tell her mother at that point and her mom beat her for saying that about her favorite
brother. So she was all alone in her world of pain and just continued to live with it.
There is so much more to this story but if I keystroke it all, I'd be here all day.
The update on her today is that her children have grown into beautiful talented young people
and one has graduated with high honors and scholarships. She went back to school, got her
GED; then went to college and has a very prestigious occupation.

So what I am trying is,

These choices are hard to make and you never know what the potential could be if you give up
on what you know deep down in your heart to be right vs what society says is acceptable.
Rosanna

<

"As for consentual sex, you have ignored the fact that no method of birth control is 100%"

That's true. There is no true method of birth control that is 100% effective. Even scientists have proven that, so it isnt religious rhetoric.

Guitar Hero, I will definitely get to your post and I will address every part. But it will have to wait till Monday. Once the weekend hits I am bombarded with a heavy work load, so please for give me. I will hoever, quickly try to address this issue of abortion while I have a bit of a break.

We all have to agree upon one thing, that no one has the right to take the life of an innocent person. I think that is self explanitory. Also, the baby is a separate human being, distinct from his or her mother. Each child has its own unique genetic identity, gender, heartbeat, brain waves, eyes, hands, feet, etc. that make it unique and different.

Consider the following question, is our society actually moving backward or forward when it permits its young to be killed as a solution to its problems? The way some of you are trying to justify it, I think we are moving backwards.

Now, one issue that some are using to justify it is the fact that women have rights. And I agree, they do have certain rights over their bodies just as men do. However, these rights (of both men and women) are limited when they affect the rights of others. Abortion directly involves the rights of at least two people: the mother and the preborn child.

i happen to know some people who were born premeturely, or the mother considered abortion. Ultimately, she gave birth to the child and gave it up for adoption. Some of you make it look llike if you are a premature baby or were given up for adoption, your life ends at birth becasue you will not go anywhere in life. However, this was absolutely not the case of these fe men that I know. They are respected doctors and lawyers who are very well prominent in their communities. It is true, we do not know how a situation will turn out, and each case is a diferent one, but you cannot always assume the worst will occur. We have to hope for the best.

"Also, the baby is a separate human being, distinct from his or her mother. Each child has its own unique genetic identity, gender, heartbeat, brain waves, eyes, hands, feet, etc. that make it unique and different."

Sure, it's different than the mother, I don't think anyone could argue that. But until it reaches the age where it can survive outside of the mother's body, it's not technically even ALIVE. You can hardly kill something that is not yet alive. That's why abortion is not considered murder.

"Some of you make it look like if you are a premature baby or were given up for adoption, your life ends at birth becasue you will not go anywhere in life. However, this was absolutely not the case of these fe men that I know."

I was adopted, and I think it's safe to say that my birthmother could have had an abortion if she had chosen to. And of course I do not believe that just because I was adopted, I won't go anywhere in life; I'm in my third year of university, with my sights on graduate school and a career in research. Think about it: I may never have existed had my birthmother chosen abortion instead of adoption. This could have made me extremely biased *against* abortion, yet here I stand defending pro-choice beliefs.

You know I have thougth long and hard about pro choice and pro life. And you either for one or the other. But I can't seem to decide, I think that there is a point that no one has brought up yet. A point that hasn't been discovered. I feel for some reason that there is another view out there. People can argue all day long, but the whole world won't ever come to a decision that everyone agrees on. I think the only thing that we can do is pray for the right answer and consult the Bible.

Abby

"it's not technically even ALIVE"

So the definition of life is a rolling target that depends on the advancement of science????

The abortionists are unwilling to concede that abortion is the killing of a human life (46 chromosomes etc) whether it is a few cells or at forty weeks gestation. The abortionists would be better off conceding this point, and focusing on rationalizing the lower value of a fetus. Of course, the anti-abortionists should stop relying on the Bible to justify their opinions and use their minds to plead their case.

However, society can establish whether meat eating, vigilante justice, the death penalty, euthenasia and abortion are acceptable pracices if it so desires ... Life can have different values placed on it depending on the circumstances and values of the populice - which brings me back to my original question:

If a woman is shot and survives, but the 1 month old fetus dies as a result, has a murder been committed?

All I see here in this topic is biased religious mumbo jumbo, which further makes me want to quote that famous degreed philosopher that we all know and love:

Religion tend to fuck people up.

“Sure, it's different than the mother, I don't think anyone could argue that. But until it reaches the
age where it can survive outside of the mother's body, it's not*** technically*** even ALIVE.
You can hardly kill something that is not yet alive. That's why abortion is not considered
murder.”

“technically” has nothing to do with reality. Just another piece of the puzzle of social
justifiable brain washing bullshit. Lets all search for an excuse of our self centered
desires. It’s totally acceptable after all, right?

“This could have made me extremely biased *against* abortion, yet here I stand defending
pro-choice beliefs. “
If I were you I would be seriously asking myself why I am thinking in such a format. Dig to the
pit of your stomach and ask yourself what has bent the way I rationalize this justification. To
whose advantage it this for?
I no nothing really. I’m just crazy. No condemnation from me here. Just stuff to consider.
Sorry if I have pissed off anyone.
ros

"So the definition of life is a rolling target that depends on the advancement of science????"

You have a point. There's obviously a limit within reason that technology should be allowed play a role in extending the definition of life. But that limit has yet to be established, and I think it is extraordinarily subjective. E.g. A premature baby that cannot even breathe, and requires complete medical intervention to sustain it may not technically be considered alive, but it may still have attained the capacity to feel pain. That obviously complicates things. But hopefully most abortions would occur well before this stage.

"The abortionists are unwilling to concede that abortion is the killing of a human life (46 chromosomes etc) ..."

So someone with trisomy 21, for example, is not human? Hey, if you're going to be nitpicky about definitions, so will I. :o)

"The abortionists would be better off conceding this point, and focusing on rationalizing the lower value of a fetus."

Okay, it has a lower value because it's not alive. :o) Alright, alright, seriously... It can't feel pain and it has no consciousness. Sure, it has a circulatory system and rudimentary nervous system, but so do ants. Not many people (Buddhists aside) would argue that stepping on an ant is unethical.

"If a woman is shot and survives, but the 1 month old fetus dies as a result, has a murder been committed?"

No, absolutely not.

"Religion tend to fuck people up."

Amen.

"If I were you I would be seriously asking myself why I am thinking in such a format. Dig to the
pit of your stomach and ask yourself what has bent the way I rationalize this justification. To
whose advantage it this for?"

Could you possibly edit that for grammar so I could actually understand what you're trying to say? I'm sorry, but I really don't know what you're asking.

"Of course, the anti-abortionists should stop relying on the Bible to justify their opinions and use their minds to plead their case."

Yeah, but that'd make too much sense.

"All I see here in this topic is biased religious mumbo jumbo, which further makes me want to quote that famous degreed philosopher that we all know and love:

Religion tend to fuck people up."

Go Rog!!

It's not the end of the topic, is it...? I enjoy it so much...!

I certainly hope not! I hope Krowa replies to that one post of mine, as he promised. Let's see what it brings.

Let's see...