I was raised Catholic, but that doesn't mean I that agree with everything that the catholic church does or believes in.
I'm sure most people in this board who were raised catholic feel that way. For a fact I believe that...
- "Original sin" is a bunch of bullshit. How could you be blamed for a sin you haven't commited?
- Abortion is right if it's done at a time when an embryo hasn't developed to become a fetus and be able to feel pain.
- A lot of stuff from the Bible is not God's words. Some douche bag wrote it to make us believe that it was God's written word.
- I eat beef on Easter whenever I feel like it, and I don't feel like a sinner.
Thread
Posts in chronological order
Guy, when I refer to Israel as a disgrace, I refer to today's Israeli government and everyone who supports it.
I for once I'm admirer of Yitzak Rabin for all his efforts to achieve peace. After decades of war, he was the first one to say... "Enough blood, enough tears... it's time to find peace". If he was the prime minister today, I'm sure the whole nation of Israel wouldn't be victim of this huge wave of violence that we see today.
And whether you hate to admit it, Ariel Sharon is a terrorist... he's not too far from becoming that "moustache guy" from the 1930s you talk about and who you dared to compare to me.
I for once I'm admirer of Yitzak Rabin for all his efforts to achieve peace. After decades of war, he was the first one to say... "Enough blood, enough tears... it's time to find peace". If he was the prime minister today, I'm sure the whole nation of Israel wouldn't be victim of this huge wave of violence that we see today.
And whether you hate to admit it, Ariel Sharon is a terrorist... he's not too far from becoming that "moustache guy" from the 1930s you talk about and who you dared to compare to me.
- "Original sin" is a bunch of bullshit. How could you be blamed for a sin you haven't commited?
Enter Adam and Eve. Their sin in the Garden of Eden gave us "original sin".
- Abortion is right if it's done at a time when an embryo hasn't developed to become a fetus and be able to feel pain.
Abortion (in my opinion because of my religious beliefs) is indeed killing the baby. Pain or not, it is a life, with a soul that God gave it.
- A lot of stuff from the Bible is not God's words. Some douche bag wrote it to make us believe that it was God's written word.
Nice. God gave the men he saw fit in His eyes the words to write. They didn't just pull it from the sky, He gave it to them to write. The bible is the infallable word of God. Again in my opinion because of my beliefs.
- I eat beef on Easter whenever I feel like it, and I don't feel like a sinner.
Who says you cant eat what you want? There are many misconceptions about alot of things that are written in the bible. It all depends on how you interpret what God is saying to you. For example. There is nothing wrong with having a glass or so of wine as long as it is not taken to excess. I smoke grass. It's a natural thing that God gave us. (every fruit bearing tree...) but not doing it overboard. I am glad we are talking about this here. And I hope that more people will say the things they belive in. Not just the Catholics or whatever you would want to call me. I don't have a lable, as I don't think that that is important. What is important is making this world a better place by showing kindness and respect twoard others here and in my life. And if that means telling my story about the love of Christ and what it means to me, then I'll do it. I don't want a fight, or to be berrated. I just want to be able to express my side as well as Guitar Hero has and Guy and others who have respect for other opinions here.
Enter Adam and Eve. Their sin in the Garden of Eden gave us "original sin".
- Abortion is right if it's done at a time when an embryo hasn't developed to become a fetus and be able to feel pain.
Abortion (in my opinion because of my religious beliefs) is indeed killing the baby. Pain or not, it is a life, with a soul that God gave it.
- A lot of stuff from the Bible is not God's words. Some douche bag wrote it to make us believe that it was God's written word.
Nice. God gave the men he saw fit in His eyes the words to write. They didn't just pull it from the sky, He gave it to them to write. The bible is the infallable word of God. Again in my opinion because of my beliefs.
- I eat beef on Easter whenever I feel like it, and I don't feel like a sinner.
Who says you cant eat what you want? There are many misconceptions about alot of things that are written in the bible. It all depends on how you interpret what God is saying to you. For example. There is nothing wrong with having a glass or so of wine as long as it is not taken to excess. I smoke grass. It's a natural thing that God gave us. (every fruit bearing tree...) but not doing it overboard. I am glad we are talking about this here. And I hope that more people will say the things they belive in. Not just the Catholics or whatever you would want to call me. I don't have a lable, as I don't think that that is important. What is important is making this world a better place by showing kindness and respect twoard others here and in my life. And if that means telling my story about the love of Christ and what it means to me, then I'll do it. I don't want a fight, or to be berrated. I just want to be able to express my side as well as Guitar Hero has and Guy and others who have respect for other opinions here.
Did somebody mention me?
I should have finished the job.
I should have finished the job.
Zeni, you have always been the level-headed person at QZ. :)
"Perhaps you could define your criticism a bit more clearly. Are you specifically arguing against Catholicism or Christianity in general? I cannot quite tell."
I am criticizing both. To sum up my complaint in a sentence: I am criticizing conservative Christians in general for refusing to open their minds on certain subjects, and I am criticizing Catholics in specific for having certain elements of their faith which include being born "unclean", and constantly feeling the need to clense themselves of sin.
"Also, could you expand on your discussion of "sin"? Were you referring to sin in general, or how it applies to Catholics?"
I was talking about the word "sin" as we English-speaking folk understand it, and have interpreted it from biblical writings. Most known documents from biblical times were written in Greek or Latin, and they ended up in the bible in translated form. In so many cases, incorrectly translated, and one example of such incorrect word is the word "sin", and many Christians (Catholics especially) have based their lives on being free and clensed of this sin. There is no mistaking or misinterpreting language. The language is what it is, and the word "sin" in the bible is a complete lie.
"And one observation, you seem to want people to have an open mind, yet your argument comes across as very heavy-handed. Perhaps if you were truly trying to change opinions, you could tone down the rhetoric."
You're right, I do come across as being very strong with my opinions, and I suppose I do feel like that, as I am very passionate about learning, especially on this subject. I say the things I do, and it's anyone's choice to read what I have to say. It just baffles me that so few people have anything to say when it comes this entire discussion.
"Not true. We come to an age of acountability where we know right from wrong. You don't know much when your born right?"
Yes, many people do hit that age of reason! But the Catholic faith is based on being born unclean and spending your life becoming suitable for when you meet God after death.
Conservative Catholics aren't hurting anyone but themselves. There are millions of them, and they live in fear. If they do not live in fear, then they are not good Catholics, because scripture teaches them to live in fear of God. So it should really come down to assessing who they really are as individuals. But that doesn't happen, as they're taught that God will take care of everything, as scripture says.
"Wrong again. You don't feel 'guilty' unless you have done something wrong. And I assume you know what that is right? Stealing, lying, cheating etc..."
No, I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Catholics are taught that they will always be unclean and full of sin, no matter how hard they try to be the best they can be.
"And many, many other things. Only because we're told they're wrong and we're scarred of god- we feel guilty."
Right on. I'm glad you found yourself and realized you were above this kind of brainwashing.
"Does God have complexes and needs my praise to feel better?"
I'll assume this is a rhetorical question. :)
Mr.Jingles79, you are obviously not a Catholic anymore, judging on the individuality you showed in your above post. This in particular:
"- A lot of stuff from the Bible is not God's words. Some douche bag wrote it to make us believe that it was God's written word."
A good claim, and one that can be totally backed up. Much of the bible is merely a collection of stories to properly suit the religions at hand, but there is plenty of good, wholesome material in the bible that still applies very well today!
"Enter Adam and Eve. Their sin in the Garden of Eden gave us "original sin"."
Think for yourself for a minute, please. It's just a story, like Humpty Dumpty. Really, who was around to write this story at the time? Literacy wasn't heard of in the su
"Perhaps you could define your criticism a bit more clearly. Are you specifically arguing against Catholicism or Christianity in general? I cannot quite tell."
I am criticizing both. To sum up my complaint in a sentence: I am criticizing conservative Christians in general for refusing to open their minds on certain subjects, and I am criticizing Catholics in specific for having certain elements of their faith which include being born "unclean", and constantly feeling the need to clense themselves of sin.
"Also, could you expand on your discussion of "sin"? Were you referring to sin in general, or how it applies to Catholics?"
I was talking about the word "sin" as we English-speaking folk understand it, and have interpreted it from biblical writings. Most known documents from biblical times were written in Greek or Latin, and they ended up in the bible in translated form. In so many cases, incorrectly translated, and one example of such incorrect word is the word "sin", and many Christians (Catholics especially) have based their lives on being free and clensed of this sin. There is no mistaking or misinterpreting language. The language is what it is, and the word "sin" in the bible is a complete lie.
"And one observation, you seem to want people to have an open mind, yet your argument comes across as very heavy-handed. Perhaps if you were truly trying to change opinions, you could tone down the rhetoric."
You're right, I do come across as being very strong with my opinions, and I suppose I do feel like that, as I am very passionate about learning, especially on this subject. I say the things I do, and it's anyone's choice to read what I have to say. It just baffles me that so few people have anything to say when it comes this entire discussion.
"Not true. We come to an age of acountability where we know right from wrong. You don't know much when your born right?"
Yes, many people do hit that age of reason! But the Catholic faith is based on being born unclean and spending your life becoming suitable for when you meet God after death.
Conservative Catholics aren't hurting anyone but themselves. There are millions of them, and they live in fear. If they do not live in fear, then they are not good Catholics, because scripture teaches them to live in fear of God. So it should really come down to assessing who they really are as individuals. But that doesn't happen, as they're taught that God will take care of everything, as scripture says.
"Wrong again. You don't feel 'guilty' unless you have done something wrong. And I assume you know what that is right? Stealing, lying, cheating etc..."
No, I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Catholics are taught that they will always be unclean and full of sin, no matter how hard they try to be the best they can be.
"And many, many other things. Only because we're told they're wrong and we're scarred of god- we feel guilty."
Right on. I'm glad you found yourself and realized you were above this kind of brainwashing.
"Does God have complexes and needs my praise to feel better?"
I'll assume this is a rhetorical question. :)
Mr.Jingles79, you are obviously not a Catholic anymore, judging on the individuality you showed in your above post. This in particular:
"- A lot of stuff from the Bible is not God's words. Some douche bag wrote it to make us believe that it was God's written word."
A good claim, and one that can be totally backed up. Much of the bible is merely a collection of stories to properly suit the religions at hand, but there is plenty of good, wholesome material in the bible that still applies very well today!
"Enter Adam and Eve. Their sin in the Garden of Eden gave us "original sin"."
Think for yourself for a minute, please. It's just a story, like Humpty Dumpty. Really, who was around to write this story at the time? Literacy wasn't heard of in the su
Adolf, shut the fuck up.
Mr.Jingles, I never compared you to him, I would never do such a thing. I only said your statement is similar to his, and statements like that caused the holocaust.
Holly2003, you reply to what you feel comfortable to reply to... You say there is nothing to respond to, however I think there is. You haven't said anything about my last 2 posts, which are far from showing me as one-sided.
Mr.Jingles, I never compared you to him, I would never do such a thing. I only said your statement is similar to his, and statements like that caused the holocaust.
Holly2003, you reply to what you feel comfortable to reply to... You say there is nothing to respond to, however I think there is. You haven't said anything about my last 2 posts, which are far from showing me as one-sided.
'When you are 19, experiencing your first labour pains, and trying to raise a child on a minimum-wage salary, then I'd love to hear all you have to say about abortion, my friend.'
OK. Then lets not use that exscuse for a method of birth control.
I have learned alot in my life. Most of it on my own. What I believe in is my own. I respect you and your opinion, and I am not going to fight with you about it :)
But for the record, I'm not Catholic. I'm just a Christian who believes very differently than the 'normal' ones. If you want an explanation, I will be happy to give one :)
OK. Then lets not use that exscuse for a method of birth control.
I have learned alot in my life. Most of it on my own. What I believe in is my own. I respect you and your opinion, and I am not going to fight with you about it :)
But for the record, I'm not Catholic. I'm just a Christian who believes very differently than the 'normal' ones. If you want an explanation, I will be happy to give one :)
I seriously think those 19 years old women shouldn't have gotten pregnant in the first place. In Israel, and I'm sure all over the world, teens had given birth and then dumped them _alive_ to die. In very few cases the babies were saved. They should overcome their "will" to sleep with someone, especially when they know they could have a baby.
"All you need is your faith in yourself, and your faith in God can back you up in along the way, only if you feel you need it. And after you die, don't worry, you and those close to you will be safe."
Someone has gone soft, and believes in god only when it is convenient for him, and it seems his belief in God is for insurance purposes only.
I believe that there is no god, but on the off chance there is one, I refuse to believe in some egomanical "Ming-like" god.
"What plaything do you have for me today?
It's a planet called earth. Will you destroy this Earth?
Later, I like to play with things awhile ... hahahaha
Someone has gone soft, and believes in god only when it is convenient for him, and it seems his belief in God is for insurance purposes only.
I believe that there is no god, but on the off chance there is one, I refuse to believe in some egomanical "Ming-like" god.
"What plaything do you have for me today?
It's a planet called earth. Will you destroy this Earth?
Later, I like to play with things awhile ... hahahaha
I previously ignored this topic because I thought it was only about a movie, but decided to look into it again after it reached page 4.
Guitar Hero: much of what you say is true, there is a dishonest church, and you mean to tell me that is not a sin. "Forgive me father for I have wandered" (meaning he disgraced his family). Isn't that a "sin"?
I let people believe what they want to believe. I'm free to choose my own way. I have a friend who is a protestant, he is a quadriplegic. If I could have only a grain of faith and joy that this man has, I would be a happier person. I teese him and I say, Puro, if you were catholic they would proclaim you a saint.
I am not afraid of God. I believe in a loving, all forgiving God. I am a catholic, but I like to define myself as a daughter of God who believes in Jesus. I don't swallow everything the catholic church wants to feed me. All those priests who have abused children will have to answer to God, just like all who abuse and kill. I rather preach with my example of life than with my words. I'm not perfect, but I try to follow the teaching of God, the teaching of love, caring and forgiveness, and I love God and Jesus not out of fear of condemnation.
I'm sorry to say this, but you seem to be an angry person. The words you wrote "cock suckers queenzones" are angry words.
I don't understand, are you angry because catholics, christians are not responding to your posts? or are you angry because we catholic "robbot thinkers" do not agree totally with you.
Your post is too long. If I was in front of you we could talk about each point, but I'm not a good writer like you. I need time to think each question, that's why sometimes I don't respond right away.
I do what your heart and conscience dictates me, that's why God gave it to us.
I let people believe what they want to believe. I'm free to choose my own way. I have a friend who is a protestant, he is a quadriplegic. If I could have only a grain of faith and joy that this man has, I would be a happier person. I teese him and I say, Puro, if you were catholic they would proclaim you a saint.
I am not afraid of God. I believe in a loving, all forgiving God. I am a catholic, but I like to define myself as a daughter of God who believes in Jesus. I don't swallow everything the catholic church wants to feed me. All those priests who have abused children will have to answer to God, just like all who abuse and kill. I rather preach with my example of life than with my words. I'm not perfect, but I try to follow the teaching of God, the teaching of love, caring and forgiveness, and I love God and Jesus not out of fear of condemnation.
I'm sorry to say this, but you seem to be an angry person. The words you wrote "cock suckers queenzones" are angry words.
I don't understand, are you angry because catholics, christians are not responding to your posts? or are you angry because we catholic "robbot thinkers" do not agree totally with you.
Your post is too long. If I was in front of you we could talk about each point, but I'm not a good writer like you. I need time to think each question, that's why sometimes I don't respond right away.
I do what your heart and conscience dictates me, that's why God gave it to us.
MamaQueen, you are obviously not one of those people that I like to poke fun at. You are a good and honest Catholic who knows what they're talking about. :) I'm sorry I was harsh on people like yourself before. It was totally wrong. I suppose I was just getting frustrated. But I'm certainly not an angry person, and I didn't say all Catholics were "robot thinkers". I was just pointing at those who blindly take in everything the church tells them. Of course that's not all of them! I'm sorry you felt the need to justify your desire to wait until you post.
"Someone has gone soft, and believes in god only when it is convenient for him, and it seems his belief in God is for insurance purposes only."
Absolutely not. My place in this topic was not to say things like that. I just professed such a thing just to show people that I have a decent and caring side, as opposed to this hard and intellectual side.
So I'm done in this topic.
P.S. I used the words "cocksucker QZers" because I thought all the honest and intellectual posters were gone from this place. You know, sometimes it's good to be wrong.
"Someone has gone soft, and believes in god only when it is convenient for him, and it seems his belief in God is for insurance purposes only."
Absolutely not. My place in this topic was not to say things like that. I just professed such a thing just to show people that I have a decent and caring side, as opposed to this hard and intellectual side.
So I'm done in this topic.
P.S. I used the words "cocksucker QZers" because I thought all the honest and intellectual posters were gone from this place. You know, sometimes it's good to be wrong.
Guitar Hero, it's too bad to see you go away because I recently finished my research papers, and I have some time on my hands to debate your issues to the fullest.
First off, you said, "Catholics have been doing the same thing for ages and ages, and not one person has ever come forward to question whether or not what they're doing is correct. Mindless, religious robots, scared into believing anything they're told. Fundamentalism at its best."
Scared into believing? That is a ridiculous comment! I can say the same thing about you or anybody else. Just because you believe something doesn't mean that fear was instilled in you to do so. Catholicism preaches free will, we have the choice to do good or bad.
Second, why do you say that nobody ever speaks up? Does Martin Luther ring a bell? What about the Vatican councils? People have had to be expressing discontent and feel some sort of seperation if the church had agreed to make changes.
Fundamentalism? Once again, as a Catholic you have free will. Unlike certain Protestand groups who believe in predestination. THe church allows people to voice their views and express their concerns. Maybe you might see that a bit difficult to beleive, but you must understand that the Catholic Church is a large institution, and there has to be some sort of order. Unlike many Protestant churches in the US, where you have a new sect forming every other day, you have small communities and issues can be addressed quicker on a smaller scale.
First off, you said, "Catholics have been doing the same thing for ages and ages, and not one person has ever come forward to question whether or not what they're doing is correct. Mindless, religious robots, scared into believing anything they're told. Fundamentalism at its best."
Scared into believing? That is a ridiculous comment! I can say the same thing about you or anybody else. Just because you believe something doesn't mean that fear was instilled in you to do so. Catholicism preaches free will, we have the choice to do good or bad.
Second, why do you say that nobody ever speaks up? Does Martin Luther ring a bell? What about the Vatican councils? People have had to be expressing discontent and feel some sort of seperation if the church had agreed to make changes.
Fundamentalism? Once again, as a Catholic you have free will. Unlike certain Protestand groups who believe in predestination. THe church allows people to voice their views and express their concerns. Maybe you might see that a bit difficult to beleive, but you must understand that the Catholic Church is a large institution, and there has to be some sort of order. Unlike many Protestant churches in the US, where you have a new sect forming every other day, you have small communities and issues can be addressed quicker on a smaller scale.
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Krowa, I appreciate you going through the effort for this!
"Scared into believing? That is a ridiculous comment! I can say the same thing about you or anybody else. Just because you believe something doesn't mean that fear was instilled in you to do so. Catholicism preaches free will, we have the choice to do good or bad."
Okay, I'll partially retract what I said, and I'll say that *too many* people are scared into their faith, and do not question anything. I've attended masses at Catholic churches before, and I've seen the priest with my own eyes, threatening his congregation, saying that they'll go to hell if they do not fulfull God's word in its entirety. I was almost sick to my stomach. I was only there because it was my cousin's confirmation.
My words are based on not only the literature I have read, but also the three Catholic churches I have been in. They all have used similar methods to the above. The priest told everyone exactly what to do, and how to do it. I don't understand where the freedom part comes in. But I'm glad there are Catholic churches that give that freedom of choice. I hope these places are the future of religion, and not the fundamentalist places that I feel are a waste of space.
So with that in mind, I now realize that all Catholic churches are not nearly as right-wing as Protestant and Baptist churches around. :) Those places can be scaaaary.
"People used the terms "God's word" or "God's wish" to justify their actions."
They do this because it's a lot easier than taking reponsibility for their own actions, good or bad.
In this whole discussion, I'm glad I've learned there are open-minded Catholics around who are able to talk to about their faith, and it was quite fulfulling to learn that they're all not robots like at the Catholic and Baptist churches I've been to. Way to go folks. Keep on thinking and learning!
However, I will still maintain my views on Fundamentalism and how utterly wrong it is, and how much these people are destroying themselves, and those who they preach their word to. I will also maintain that there are flaws in the bible, and major flaws in the way certain faiths deal with the bible; reading, as opposed to reading and interpreting.
In the end, I will always respect those who go on a spiritual journey throughout their lives. I will never respect those who feel they have already reached the pinnacle of the journey, because in your lifetime, you never will.
"Scared into believing? That is a ridiculous comment! I can say the same thing about you or anybody else. Just because you believe something doesn't mean that fear was instilled in you to do so. Catholicism preaches free will, we have the choice to do good or bad."
Okay, I'll partially retract what I said, and I'll say that *too many* people are scared into their faith, and do not question anything. I've attended masses at Catholic churches before, and I've seen the priest with my own eyes, threatening his congregation, saying that they'll go to hell if they do not fulfull God's word in its entirety. I was almost sick to my stomach. I was only there because it was my cousin's confirmation.
My words are based on not only the literature I have read, but also the three Catholic churches I have been in. They all have used similar methods to the above. The priest told everyone exactly what to do, and how to do it. I don't understand where the freedom part comes in. But I'm glad there are Catholic churches that give that freedom of choice. I hope these places are the future of religion, and not the fundamentalist places that I feel are a waste of space.
So with that in mind, I now realize that all Catholic churches are not nearly as right-wing as Protestant and Baptist churches around. :) Those places can be scaaaary.
"People used the terms "God's word" or "God's wish" to justify their actions."
They do this because it's a lot easier than taking reponsibility for their own actions, good or bad.
In this whole discussion, I'm glad I've learned there are open-minded Catholics around who are able to talk to about their faith, and it was quite fulfulling to learn that they're all not robots like at the Catholic and Baptist churches I've been to. Way to go folks. Keep on thinking and learning!
However, I will still maintain my views on Fundamentalism and how utterly wrong it is, and how much these people are destroying themselves, and those who they preach their word to. I will also maintain that there are flaws in the bible, and major flaws in the way certain faiths deal with the bible; reading, as opposed to reading and interpreting.
In the end, I will always respect those who go on a spiritual journey throughout their lives. I will never respect those who feel they have already reached the pinnacle of the journey, because in your lifetime, you never will.