The Passion of Christ

I would never label Catholicism as fundamentalism clearly because Roman Catholicism relies on two things, scripture and tradition.

This is not the case for many Protestant sects here in the United States. Some Protestants, especially the Baptists, are labeled as "Bible thumpers" because they only use scripture to prove their point, and this is obviously wrong to do.

Fenderek,you have made a very interesting comment before:

"I detest this thing[Catholicism] with all my heart; it's lies, hypocrisy and- basically- it's anti-human nature approach..."

First of all, the last thing you can say that Catholicism uses the anti-human nature approach. After all the Catholic Church is the biggest defender Natural Law, that is why the Church opposes homosexual acts and abortion.

Second, hypocrisy and lies? Can you point it out for me? I really have a hard time seeing this, especially the hypocrisy part.

Iron Eagle posted:

"there are lots more acceptable prejudices then just [anti]-catholicism...

Mel's father is actually the one that is considered the radical in religious views peeps"

You are right, other prejudices do exist even bigger than anti-Catholicism. However, other prejudices are not as tolerated as anti-Catholicism. For example when the black race comes into question or is being attacked you have Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, American Civil Liberties union, and Anti Defamation League defending them publicly. Did you ever hear of ACLU defending Catholicism? Of Course not!

Let me give you another example. Couple of years back the movie "The Seige" was being filmed in NYC. It is about Arab terrorists in the city. The production company had to hire special professors and consultants of Muslim faith so that the movie does not portray the Arabs as terrorists because after all, their scripture teaches against terrorism. Well, what about movies like "Dogma" and "Stigmata" where the Catholic scripture is parodied and lampooned, and made a total mockary of? What about that?

And now, this film by Mel Gibson, do you know what his script was? It was the Gospel according to St. John. I guess the Catholic Church has been reading anti-Semitic literature for the last 2000 years. On top of that, none of us have seen the movie, yet some of you have become the judge, jury and executioners, and have already convicted Gibson and his film.

We need to re-evaluate ourselves, and come to a conclusion that if we are going to be bashing one faith, then we have to bash the others just as equally. However, we should never bash religions, rather have respect for eachother, which should also be equal.

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In regards to homosexuals, the Catholic Church never condemns the individual, however it does condemn the act. You can be gay, but don't take part in unnatural acts that go against the grain of Natural Law.

The Catholic Church does not think sex is "ugly". The Church beleives it is important and a beautiful means for a man and a woman to accomplish two things: to unify the couple and to produce a family.

In nature, some people are not meant to have children. That is why some have low sperm count or bad fallopian tubes; this is just a product of nature. The reason why priests remain celibate, is because they can serve the community a lot better, and address their issues if they don't have their own personal problems at home tying them down. The priests have made a life long sacrifice to serve the community and the Church 24/7. Also, what about Buddhist monks? Aren't they celibate? How come nobody has a problem with them, Not that anyone should. But if you are going to attack celibacy, address all those involved in it.

The entire recent Church scandal, has brought shame and disappointment to the institution, and I believe that as moral leaders it should have never happened in the first place. However, did you ever hear the media address the child abuse issue in NYC public shools? Of course not, even though there are far more cases there then in the Church. Out of all the priests, only less than 2% have been involved in the scandal. So once again, if you are going to address ceratin issues, we should look at the whole spectrum.

By the way, this is a bit off topic, are you still living in Poland, Fenderek?

"I would never label Catholicism as fundamentalism clearly because Roman Catholicism relies on two things, scripture and tradition."

I never once said Catholicism was fundamentalism. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. It can get pretty close though, judging by their desires to continue forbidding homosexuality and abortion.

"When you are 19, experiencing your first labour pains, and trying to raise a child on a minimum-wage salary, then I'd love to hear all you have to say about abortion."

My view on abortion, copied from the previous page. I think it's ridiculous and completely unfair to judge whether or not abortion is a correct act until you have been in the situation yourself. No, I am not using this as justification for lack of birth control, but I thought everyone knew that no method of birth control is 100%.

"Can we please come up with a way to deal with it that 1) does not involve censorshiop, and 2) does not involve ripping out anyone's throat?"

No Geeks, not possible. The people whom you will have this conflict with will not reason with such logic.

even tho some people are getting pissed, I can say I enjoy this topic.

"It can get pretty close though, judging by their desires to continue forbidding homosexuality and abortion."

Based on what you have said, one thing is clear, you have to give the Church credit for always having the same stance on these issues, never change. That is what is great, even though our society changes, the Church continues to instll the same moral values. It continues to remain the control. In our society, when we find a hardship or an obstacle we cannot face, we decide to change our morals and compromise our values. The Catholic Church remains to have the same stance on different subject, using Laws of Nature and Reason. Many just cannot face the fact that an institution is willing to remain so strong about different issues.

But in fact, in life there needs to be someone who will speak up for the unborn children who have no voice to speak. We value human life so much, that governments would kill those who take life away, we even give criminals lawyers who are payed with tax money to defend their evil actions. Yet unborn babies were still being aborted and have no one to speek for them. In the US, Bush just signed a law recently that would prohibit abortion after the sixth month. Before that, women could have abortion at 8 or 9 months.

hey hairy butt guy
(not meaning to insult. It's a very nice hairy butt and I think it's rather attractive.)

Anyway if you are board with this topic, pleace come post on mine.

Rosanna

I must say that this topic is way entertaining.

BTW, about Adam and Eve, I do not believe in that story. The story of Adam and Eve has been taken from old oral traditions from other religions. Also, this story is purely symbollic, even the Catholic Church has labeled it symbollic.

Born into a Catholic family, I too was raised with the ideals of this faith. However, during my years in Catholic School I saw the hypocritical way nuns and priests, and of course parishoners follow the faith. This led me to abandon the church all together. The faith in Catholicism has failed me.

Christianity, as a philosophy, not as a religion, is wonderful. However, us, we bend the rules according to our likeness. We can go back to history to all the atrocities made by the Catholic Church or any Christian demonination, and we will see these crimes against humanity. So if Christianity is about loving your fellow man, love, and forgiveness, do these Christian denominations follow it? IMO, they do not.

About God and Satan, good vs evil. I believe that this duality exists for a purpose: to create balance. Still, we do not know if God exists or even Satan. According to the Bible, God was everything before creation. Lucifer was an angel. There was a rebellion in the heavens, and Lucifer was cast down to hell. I still am confused if Lucifer and Satan are the same person, although I think they are two completetly different beings. How do we know that God created evil? I personally don't know, but it isnt a question that keeps me awake at night. I believe in balance, and "good" and "evil" exists. Perhaps man invented evil, we just don't know.

For me, The Bible, is a book filled with many contradictions. How can a wrathful God in the Old Testament turned into a God of Mercy in the New Testament. I've even tried to ask that in my Religion Ethics teacher when I was in HS, and I always got a blank stare and the automatic response, "It is just there". It baffles me, not even priests, brothers, or nuns know it! There are TONS of books that arent in The Bible. Why? Ask the Catholic Church. Is there a mystery that they don't want us to know? How come the Church is so rich, while they have to practice poverty and meekness? Like I said, the Church just disappointed me. I left the faith, and now believe in God (she, he, or it) in my own way.

About Gibson's film, I really want to see it. I am a fan of these religious films and/or epic films. I really cannot say if it is anti semitic, until I see it. However, it is a historical fact. The Jewish authorities (not the Jewish people) in that time were the ones that plotted Jesus's death. I don't think this is anti semitic at all. It was a historical fact. So pointing the finger at a populace is wrong. Jesus was a threat to the Jewish government. Jesus was a rebel.

This is how I believe. You guys on the other hand, should believe in whatever you want, and never debate over something as blind as faith.

One more thing, celibacy wasn't mandatory during the first years of the church. Even the first Pope, Peter, was a married man. Still, he left his family to preach the word of God, according to Jesus. The concept of celibacy was implimited much later on. I think during the Middle Ages, please correct me if I am wrong.

BTW, I'm watching Jesus of Nazareth at the moment on the History Channel, excellent film.

There are allways going to be people who go off the original philosophy of any faith. Some of you pointed them out in Catholicism. What about the pyramid scandals of many rabbis here in the States? What about Muslims who kill in the name of God?

Like I said before, if you are going to point out hipocrisy within religion, do it across the entire table. Give examples of more than just Roman Catholicism.

Shoujo, I must say, I am impressed with your knowledge, and with your post overall. You're a better person than I. :)

"The concept of celibacy was implanted much later on. I think during the Middle Ages, please correct me if I am wrong."

Yes, celibacy definitely came much later on. It was instilled by the church as a means of molding the priest into more of an authority figure. The logic was (and remains), "if the priest appears to be completely devoted to God, then people will be more willing to believe anything he has to say".

"The story of Adam and Eve has been taken from old oral traditions from other religions. Also, this story is purely symbollic, even the Catholic Church has labeled it symbollic."

Right on! The same goes for the ark story, and the virgin birth. Several faiths (some obscure, but just as old as Christianity) have such stories in them, and many of the "virgin births" happened on the 25th of December as well. How many Christians know this, do you think?

"Perhaps man invented evil, we just don't know. I personally don't know, but it isnt a question that keeps me awake at night."

That's right, we don't know. It's a shame that people actually spend many nights, and many years, trying to figure such a thing out. Sad, isn't it?

"How can a wrathful God in the Old Testament turned into a God of Mercy in the New Testament?"

Never ask a priest this question. You will never get a straight answer. Just smile and nod while reading these sections of the bible, and take it in for the entertainment value.

"Is there a mystery that they don't want us to know?"

Of course! They won't tell you, but there are definitely books that will.

"Jesus was a threat to the Jewish government. Jesus was a rebel."

100% correct. The reason Jesus was killed was because he was an anarchist. If you wanted to preach to the wrong people, you got killed for it. Simple. The Historical Jesus was a good man, and paid the ultimate price for being it. Note that I say "Historical Jesus", and not Jesus as the bible makes him out to be. At least half of the quotes of Jesus in the bible are things he didn't actually say. After reading the Q Gospel (the Gospel that priests and ministers forbid to be seen by faithful Christians), you'll just know that it's not possible for Jesus to have said many of the things that he it says he did. You'll in fact find that Jesus was an ordinary guy, who taught only in parables, not of faith and/or literature.

Now, to reply to our beloved faithful Catholic.

"Based on what you have said, one thing is clear, you have to give the Church credit for always having the same stance on these issues, never change. That is what is great, even though our society changes, the Church continues to instll the same moral values."

This is the exact opposite of what is correct! Because the church never changes, that leaves people NO room for opening their mind to change! This is the problem with the church! 1000-2000 year old morals just may not still work today, with the way society changes. For anything to work in today's culture, you have to change or at least modify yourself with the changes in culture. Otherwise, it crashes and burns. Yes, I'll agree that the church has gone outside of that little rule, but is it the best thing they can be doing? Leaving people closed-minded?

"The Catholic Church remains to have the same stance on different subject, using Laws of Nature and Reason."

Nature and reason, as opposed to humankind and logic. Good job, folks.

"Many just cannot face the fact that an institution is willing to remain so strong about different issues."

Paraphrase: When an institution refuses to open its mind on major subjects in the world today, people who actually THINK will not agree with the institution's desire to take the easy way out and not change for the better.

"But in fact, in life there needs to be someone who will speak up for the

Shoujo Revolution wrote:

"How can a wrathful God in the Old Testament turned into a God of Mercy in the New Testament."

Well, Jews rely on the Torah or Old Testament to Christians. THe OT is God's Law, and many Jews back then believed that bad things happen to a person because God is punishing him or her. This was only what the people believed; God never declared this through scripture. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the meaning behind every story that is in the OT can be traced back to the Ten Commandments; therefore the strong reliabilty on God's Law.

However, when Christ came about, he showed people that God is merciful, hence he came and sacrificed himself. Just becaus eGod is all knowing and all powerful being, doesn't mean that humans are, and humans need to be shown what is right and what is wrong.

Krowa I see your point, and it is valid.

However, I was speaking from my own experience as an ex Catholic living on a Christian island, where the Muslim and Jewish populace are a small percent of the population.

I see that every person that follows a particular philosophy or religion interprets the scriptures or religious/philospphical writtings in their own way. Some are lead to believe from a leader or group, while some seek the knowledge in their own way. I believe that scriptures such as The Bible, The Torah, The Koran, and others are open into interpretation.

Unfornutatetly, in a world were individuality is a goal not reached, one person, group, religious denomination can sway the masses with a word or/and a turn of a page. That's the way I can best describe Muslims killing others in the name of Allah (God), and the Holocaust for that matter.