The Passion of Christ

The Koran is just like any other religious book. It contains both good and evil. Different people see different things in it - some see good intentions and some see bad intentions. It's very important to say not ALL Muslims support what the Muslim terrorists are doing - most don't. I hope that should stop all the "all Muslims are..." and "all Christians are..." statements. It's obvious that we all understand our bibles in different ways.

"THe OT is God's Law, and many Jews back then believed that bad things happen to a person because God is punishing him or her."

OT is God's law, eh? Book of Numbers, chapter 25. God is thrilled with the act of murder, and encouraged it in masses, just because one group of people were persecuted by another. This is God's law?

Ahem, you were saying?

"Well, Jews rely on the Torah or Old Testament to Christians. THe OT is God's Law, and many Jews back then believed that bad things happen to a person because God is punishing him or her. This was only what the people believed; God never declared this through scripture. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the meaning behind every story that is in the OT can be traced back to the Ten Commandments; therefore the strong reliabilty on God's Law."

As I see it, it can be traced even further before the Ten Commandments.
I assume (its horrid to assume btw) that you've read, Krowa, the story of Abraham. The popular version only gives us Abraham and the birth of Issac. Now, the story of Soddom and Gomorra was way before the Ten Commandments. By that time Judaism was not an established faith, it didn't even exist for that matter. The Soddom and Gomorrah story is a perfect example of the wrath of God, implementing punishment for sins. The same can be said for the Noah's Ark story, but that can be open for debate, because that story had been in existence way before The Bible.
About God's law, that can be open to debate because that God didn't write the OT. It was written by people that believe God spoke to them. God's word, as far as I believe, was never set in stone. God never wrote it. People did. As we humans are creatures with vivid imaginations, religious leaders never question the validity of what is written. Still, now, it cannot be proven, all we have is the word.

"However, when Christ came about, he showed people that God is merciful, hence he came and sacrificed himself. Just becaus eGod is all knowing and all powerful being, doesn't mean that humans are, and humans need to be shown what is right and what is wrong."

True. Still the huge question is why the sudden change? Of course The Bible doesnt follow a sequence of events from the OT to the NT. However, Jesus forgave evil and immoral human beings. I believe that the main idea of the NT was that we are all sinners, but we can redeem ourselves if we accept our human faults and follow God's will. But humans, as I believe, are animals with reason. We can repent, and be forgiven lots of times, but sometimes we can fall into the same ditch of sin again and again. Each human being has a notion of what is right, and what is wrong. Humans have the power of reason to discover it, and follow it.

Guitar Hero, thanks for the compliment. However, I'm not any better than you or anyone else.

"God's word, as far as I believe, was never set in stone. God never wrote it. People did. As we humans are creatures with vivid imaginations, religious leaders never question the validity of what is written."

*applauds loudly*

Although this isn't entirely true. I once spoke with a minister of a Presbyterian church, and he told me in confidence that he knows the church is very wrong a lot of the time, but for the sake of his congregation, he has to keep his mouth shut and preach anyway.

Guy, you have a point, and I'm sorry if I had used Muslims instead of some Muslims. You are right, the Koran is just like any holy scripture, I believe that.

Still, its open to interpretation to whoever reads it. There is no real universal truth, only the truth in our minds.

Guitar Hero,

Virgin births were noticeable in the Greek civilization. Unwedded women (esp. prostitutes) that had children were considered their offspring to be from the seed of Zeus or any Greek god.

When it comes to Jesus's birth, that is a whole mystery all together. Some say that he wasn't born on the 25th as Christianity points out. Some say that he wasn't even born on the first day of the first year of this the past 2 milleniums. Again, the Virgin Birth and the day, and even the place when and where Jesus was born is still a hot topic.

Guitar Hero, nice long post filled with false statements for me to refute. Exellent! :-)

""Is there a mystery that they don't want us to know?"

Of course! They won't tell you, but there are definitely books that will."

I really do not know to what you are refering here to and trying to say.

"This is the exact opposite of what is correct! Because the church never changes, that leaves people NO room for opening their mind to change! "

Like I said before, the Church relies on Law of Nature and Reason. It uses the Law of Nature to prove its stance on issues like abortion and homosexuality. Those two acts are unnatural, and against the laws of nature. The Church uses the Laws of Reason to address issues that might change as the times change.

"Nature and reason, as opposed to humankind and logic."

Humankind is part of nature, isn't it? And isn't logic part of reason? The whole idea of logic stems down from Socrates using reason.

"When an institution refuses to open its mind on major subjects in the world today, people who actually THINK will not agree with the institution's desire to take the easy way out and not change for the better."

The easy way out would be to change, because you cannot address an issue so you mind as well take the side of your opponent; another words, accept defeat. It takes courage to stand up for what you believe, and that is what the Church is doing. But I guess you would like to follow somebody like the blind mice because they have an "open mind".

I think you and I agree about abortion then. Because I am aganst it and I find it necessary to defend human life at all of its stages.

"You're kidding me, right? So it's okay to kill one group of people, but not another? Please concur."

I was making a point saying that it is NOT okay to kill one group but not another. We give tax dollars to provide defenders for criminals, meanwhile innocent babies are dying without a voice. I find this to be WRONG. I thought I made that clear.

"Yes, this is indeed a major problem. It's a pity that some Christians use this fact to claim that Islam is a religion based on hate...more on love and doing good for others than almost any Christian division...as opposed to the Christian bible which is full of murder, hate and contradictions."

Islam does preach peace. But don't tell me that throughout history the Muslims have been all about peace. Even now in the last fifty years Muslms tried to use religion to justify violence. I am not saying all Muslims do this, I am not making a generalization, but many do try to justify acts of violence using God. Now many Christians and Jews also do that, but you have to become aware that Muslims do it to. So don't say how Christianity is full of hate, because it is not.

"OT is God's law, eh? Book of Numbers, chapter 25. God is thrilled with the act of murder, and encouraged it in masses, just because one group of people were persecuted by another. This is God's law?"

I meant to say that many of the stories in OT are there to point out and show the meaning of God's Law.

"Islam does preach peace. But don't tell me that throughout history the Muslims have been all about peace. Even now in the last fifty years Muslms tried to use religion to justify violence. I am not saying all Muslims do this, I am not making a generalization, but many do try to justify acts of violence using God. Now many Christians and Jews also do that, but you have to become aware that Muslims do it to. So don't say how Christianity is full of hate, because it is not."

Hate and violence came way before any established religion, faith, and / or philosophy.

Krowa, you have a point there. People have used "the word" in the holy writting of any given religion as an excuse for killing, torturing other people.

If look back in history, MOST wars were based on religious beliefs. In the OT there was the battles between the jews and the persians, for example. They both followed different faith, as well these battles were territorial.

When it comes to Christianity vs Islam, the best example that I can think of is the Crusades. Now, lets admit something here, and it is a fact, as far as I know, that back in the Middle Ages Christianity was a "European only" religion. They killed tons of Muslims in the name of the male, white haired, blue eyed god, to regain control of Jerusalem. While the Muslims tried to defend their properties from the Christians, and killed in the name of Allah. Now see the pattern here? The philosophy might preach peace, but its how humans may use it, and do the opposite.

"Virgin births were noticeable in the Greek civilization. Unwedded women (esp. prostitutes) that had children were considered their offspring to be from the seed of Zeus or any Greek god."

Yeah, I remember learning this kinda stuff, now that you mention it. Thanks for the refresh. :)

"However, I'm not any better than you or anyone else."

You're more understanding and accepting of conservative Christians than I am. But maybe that's because I have unfortunately dealt with too many of these people on a personal basis, and I just can't stand even the thought of their religious ways, now that I know all too much about them.

"Guitar Hero, nice long post filled with false statements for me to refute."

Justify yourself! Which are the false statements? List them out for me, and provide good and educated reasoning as to why you disagree. One rule though, "the Bible said so" and "my priest said so" will not be qualified and acceptable statements of reasoning.

"I really do not know to what you are refering here to and trying to say."

Of course you don't! In the Catholic church, there is one book, and that is the Bible. In your local library, there are dozens of books you can read that were written by people who are exponentially more knowledgeable than priests. In terms of specific literature, I already mentioned both "The Dishonest Church" and the Q gospel, both of which I'm sure you have copies of in your living room beside your Bible, right?

I have been educated by these kinds of books and a misister with his pHD in the philosophy of religion, while you seemingly have been educated only by Catholic priests. We're obviously on completely different levels here.

"Those two acts are unnatural, and against the laws of nature."

Okay, for the first time in this topic, I am now completely angry. ARE YOU BLIND? Have you totally missed what I said? For the third time, I will say this:

"When you are 19, experiencing your first labour pains, and trying to raise a child on a minimum-wage salary, then I'd love to hear all you have to say about abortion."

Put your faith in God and the church aside for just ONE MINUTE, and THINK about this statement. And this time, reply to it as it is.

"But I guess you would like to follow somebody like the blind mice because they have an 'open mind'."

Blind mice? You're saying the ones who accept change and live with open minds are blind mice? Not only is that a horrible contradiction, but it is the English language using an oxymoron!

"But don't tell me that throughout history the Muslims have been all about peace."

Nope, I'll never say that. Christians and Jews are apparently just about as guilty as that. But this isn't my area of expertise. However, I do know that the Koran has much more positivity in it than the Bible does.

"I meant to say that many of the stories in OT are there to point out and show the meaning of God's Law."

Once again, you totally IGNORED what I said. Go and read Numbers 25, and come back here saying you whether or not agree with this representation of "God's law", as you put it.

"You can be gay, but don't take part in unnatural acts that go against the grain of Natural Law."

So I can be a doctor, but I'm not allowed to practice medicine? And who are you to say what is natural? So you have the right to say a gay person is not natural, but he can't tell you that you're unnatural in your belief that their sexuality isn't natural?

"I was making a point saying that it is NOT okay to kill one group but not another. We give tax dollars to provide defenders for criminals, meanwhile innocent babies are dying without a voice. I find this to be WRONG. I thought I made that clear."

What does stopping/continuing abortion have to do with money? Don't start talking about money. I think this would be a good time to remind everybody that the Catholic church brings in tens of millions of dollars, *untaxed dollars*, annual

Lo and behold...
The Apocrypha
Please, if any of you are interested in the lost scriptures (the mysteries) that most aren't in either the OT or the NT due to their validity, check this link out. Good read I must say.

http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/

BTW, I found that it was strange that a Mormon is hosting this site. Still, excellent read.

Religion is all about beliefs! When Bob (Guitar Hero) says he wants proofs other than "the Bible said so", it's impossible to give them!

It's just like the old arguement if there is a God or not. Obviously when people say "Prove it!" they don't understand the whole meaning of the word "religion". That's why there are different religions, because people BELIEVE in different things.

As I don't know anything about the way churches act I cannot refer to that subject, but I do know that this topic has gone way further than condemning Catholic churches - now it's questioning God's existence, and telling people what to believe is wrong.

Guy, how did your post come before mine? :)

"When Bob (Guitar Hero) says he wants proofs other than "the Bible said so", it's impossible to give them!"

Not true. Look at the things I've been saying. Most of them aren't related to faith. They're about the literature I've read, most of these books being things conservative Christians didn't know existed!

"It's just like the old arguement if there is a God or not. Obviously when people say "Prove it!" they don't understand the whole meaning of the word "religion". That's why there are different religions, because people BELIEVE in different things."

I appreciate that view Guy, but these issues go a lot further than just faith. They're about educating yourself, and trying to find truth in religious practices that are centuries old. It's just a matter of whether or not people are willing to accept that even the biggest of things may be wrong, and based on stories created just to suit the church.

Put this into persepective: When someone is in their 30s or 40s, and they're told there is a book of Jesus' words that reveals says he never once called himself "Christ", it could make their life a lie. What if they were told to even *consider* that the virgin birth and resurrection were not actual events, or that the concept of sin is a total lie? They don't even want to entertain it! If I had that kind of faith for 30 or 40 years, I'd probably be afraid to question it, too! It's all a matter of how brave you are. After so many years of listening to only Catholic priests and hearing no alternative views, no wonder our beloved Catholic doesn't want to reply to all these things.

But that's just my guess. Anyone is of course welcome to give an alternative opinion to that.