Queen invented hiphop....

Yo hiphop is music ya narrow n' focused minders... my ex band did alot of hip hop and ska stuff live and in the end its all about the musical riddims baby not the generator...
before we get technical about who has the best musical generator a guy with a guitar or a group with a karaoke machine and a scrartch decks.

as long as they make the beats bounce its music.... som of you might aswell say clappin your hands is not musical as it requiers little musical technology to make the sound, instead of freely hassling over technologied Djs. lol!

any thing else not music???? I hate pop.... but hey only to an extent cos if I look in any music megastores around the world Queen is degraded into the pop section!

Whatever man.... Rap and hip-hop are not music!

I've spent my entire life listening to classical and rock music, educating myself to be the best musician I can be; words can barely describe how incredibly insulted I feel every time I hear that a rap song has gone to #1. What has that rapper done in his life? Commit two murders, do a hell of a lot of drugs, and freestyle a bunch of words (mostly manufactured ghetto language) and get a hit song? And no, I'm not being stereotypical. Just look at the bios of of today's rap "stars".

And look at the videos... making women out to be objects, and trying to show that life is all about playing basketball and going to clubs to pick up girls... not to mention spreading the message that the sluttiest-looking girls are the ones the rapper will want.

Garbage. Pure, grade A garbage. It's ruining our society, and the creative potential of our young generation. I fear for the future of the next generation of kids.

Guitar Hero, it’s possible to make intelligent hip-hop and you should know that as a person who is interested in music in general.

“words can barely describe how incredibly insulted I feel every time I hear that a rap song has gone to #1. words can barely describe how incredibly insulted I feel every time I hear that a rap song has gone to #1.”

I don’t understand how anyone could ever feel insulted by a song that goes to #1. If you do, there must be a lot of other things that insult you in the same sense…
Also, I think you generalize way too much, as well as you exaggerate. Of course I agree about “the” videos, though I don’t give a fuck for the videos the are played on MTV. What other videos there have an intelligent message? It’s a waste of time to watch most of them, not only hip-hop.

“What has that rapper done in his life? Commit two murders, do a hell of a lot of drugs, and freestyle a bunch of words (mostly manufactured ghetto language) and get a hit song?”

You describe a minority and pass sentence about a genre. You only think of the commercially oriented pseudo-rappers. There is a lot more out there to discover which sounds fab IMHO.

“It's ruining our society, and the creative potential of our young generation.”

Completely wrong. It’s a development in music, you know, and a highly creative as well. It has created a whole branche of culture (I know that for some narrow minded people the term culture is reserved to the so-called high-art), and far more people, rich or poor, can take part, because almost everyone can do it. You are very much mistaken if you measure the structure of new popular music like rap with the standards of tonal (art) music, because it was invented to overcome those old traditions, it has different purposes, different content. And it is not necessarily simple at all, for sure not simpler than the mainstream of rock music – which obviously does not insult you.

I think the problem is hip-hop is the ONLY thing most kids hear today.

-so sad....

Love Hip Hop...hey they're making more money than Dream Theater.

Matt: the only answer to your post is my previous post. Sorry, you didn't understand a word of what I said, to explain it I would have to repeat. Maybe I'll do that later, after I got some sleep (it's early morning).

"In that case it scares the crap out of me. I have a 10 year old girl."

I am scared by your post, especially ragarding you have a young daughter, since she is the daughter of a person with heavily racist and unbelievably narrow-minded thoughts in his head. I am really shocked by your attitude, but than again it's not news to me. We will never agree, it seems, although I still feel the need to try to make you THINK before you post - and not post contradictions all the time, like:

"It's the so called music. First of all, most of the music on radio today is full of blatant sexuality, or sexual innuendos."

Is it the MUSIC? Or the sexuality of the LYRICS or ATTITUDE? Didn't you say rap isn't music in the first place?

Pimp Diddy and his friends ARE the minority. Hip Hop is not only what you see on MTV, it is everything BUT what you see on television. You are simply to lazy to walk into a well sorted record shop and find out what music there is, you assume that what the PR and management of Pimp Diddy offers you via MTV is everything there is regarding hip hop. How pathetic. Of course that's crap. What you hear on the radio and on tv is 1% of contemporary music, the problem is, this 1% is everything you know.

""It has created a whole branche of culture..."

Yes. And that branch should be trimmed from the tree."

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, and even less an idea what culture I was talking about.
When rock'n'roll was "invented", there were a lot of short-sighted people like you with exactly the same arguments; same goes for early Jazz, as well as for every new development in so called "classical" music. But above all, your words remind me of the vocabulary the Nazis used in Germany, 70 years ago, with all that completely stupid "Entartete Musik" drivel. I thought, we had learnt that lesson long ago. You don't.

"I hate those doof doof boys you hear at the lights heaving it up with their pimp dog homeslice G, mix-o-matic!

Mind you I usually murder them and eat their skull later on."

I'm one of those doof doof boys, except instead of Two Quarters and Nelson or whatever their names are, I blast the latest by Tito Puente and The All-Star Mexicali Latin Ensemble. You want to turn heads? Blast something with a great, muted trumpet line, and there you be.

This concerns me:
"You have kids, white kids from all walks of life dressing like the heros they admire with baggy pants, huge chains, and even adopting the disgusting 'talk'. That goes for our lovely white performers as well. "

The essence of that whole paragraph, with this bit highlighted for added emphasis, is that blacks should stick to black things and whites to white things. How else can you interpret the idea that "'black crap' music" somehow taints "our lovely white performers"? As Hank alludes to, that type of terminology has been used in the past to do evil things.

"Guitar Hero, it’s possible to make intelligent hip-hop and you should know that as a person who is interested in music in general."

I was talking strictly from a commercial point of view. I'm sure there is indeed more intelligent hip-hop out of the mainstream, but it's just a genre that doesn't connect with me.

"I don’t understand how anyone could ever feel insulted by a song that goes to #1. If you do, there must be a lot of other things that insult you in the same sense…"

It's just speaking from a creative perspective. There is far better music out there that is barely recognized. Just listen to the radio... it's completely full of garbage, all day long. Of course, people without high musical intellect (which are the majority) haven't noticed the steady decline in the quality of popular music. Anyone who is musically educated and can notice (and chooses to notice) such things, does.

"Also, I think you generalize way too much, as well as you exaggerate. Of course I agree about “the” videos, though I don’t give a fuck for the videos the are played on MTV. What other videos there have an intelligent message? It’s a waste of time to watch most of them, not only hip-hop."

Nah, I don't generalize. Again, just turn on the radio, and if it's a station playing modern commercial music, I'm very sure it will be an uncreative song that sounds just like the last one. And I fully realize that hip-hop isn't the only genre putting out crap, both musically and visually. With the exception of death metal, no other genre gives such negative messages like rap/hip-hop. Unless you're okay with murder, gangs, and making women out to be objects. Where else on MTV will you see this stuff being waved around? Better than that, in what other art form are these messages so strongly displayed?

"You describe a minority and pass sentence about a genre. You only think of the commercially oriented pseudo-rappers. There is a lot more out there to discover which sounds fab IMHO."

I know I'm not a rap expert. But I do know that the rappers who get the most attention are naturally those who are in the public eye, and they are the ones that are creating the stereotypes. Again, the girls, clubs, basketball, violence, etc etc...

"It’s a development in music, you know, and a highly creative as well. It has created a whole branche of culture (I know that for some narrow minded people the term culture is reserved to the so-called high-art), and far more people, rich or poor, can take part, because almost everyone can do it."

It's very nice when you put it that way, yes. But look at it from this perspective: most commercial rap and hip-hop music display little means of intelligence. The following goes for anyone who listens to music more than casually: a huge chunk of their overall intelligence is directly proportional to the quality of music they listen to, and how they appreciate it. Music *is* culture. If someone can happily listen to bland 4-chorded (or less :P) pop music on their spare time, and justify that it is enough to satisfy their musical needs, chances are the person is a bland person. Go ahead, tell me I'm judgemental. But it's the truth. Never in my life had I spoken with one fully intelligent person who is a hardcore fan of one of the following artists:

Dido, Celine Dion, Nickelback, Our Lady Peace, System Of A Down, 50 Cent, P Diddy, Nelly, the list goes on...

I have however, talked to brilliant people who are fans and analysts of the following artists:

The Beatles, Queen, Rush, Genesis, Yes, Dream Theater, Tool, Frank Zappa, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Oscar Peterson, Al DiMeola, and this list goes on as well...

"You are very much mistaken if you measure the structure of new popular music like rap with the standards of tonal (art) music, because it was invented to overcome those old traditions, it has different purposes, different content. And it is not necessarily simple at all, for sure not

We have a different opinion about what makes up the rap-genre. I am not speaking about P Diddy, 50 cent and all similar folks on MTV that I don't know the names of. I certainly don't want to speak in favour of them.
The music and culture that I was talking about doesn't get much airplay, if any at all. Still I said it's the majority, because I think what you get to know when you look at the charts is only a small percentage of the genre, and this small percentage is in the public eye and therefore seems to be the majority.
Hip hop is a club culture which certainly doesn't harm the society, the so-called underground culture with hundreds of small labels who put out hundreds of singles every week, those people are highly creative although they are no new John Coltranes, John Lennons or Freddie Mercurys and never wanted to be. And nothing of all this music ever makes it to MTV. MTV, however, does harm the society.

About the "steady decline in the quality of popular music", I partly agree, but I don't think popular music has EVER been of high musical quality, as well as I don't think everything today is rubbish. I fully agree about the artists you mention, and I agree that rap is musically limited compared to them, but that's not the point. There are a lot of artists who make every effort to create new sounds all the time, with new musical equipment and who truly love what they produce no matter how much they sell of it and who therefore deserve my respect. If I only choose my music by the complexity of it's structure, and only listen to the best stuff I find in that respect, after discovering Bach I wouldn't be allowed to listen to anything else any more. I prefer to listen to different music in different situations, and I can have great fun spending an evening dancing to a hip hop DJ who really knows his business.
Once again, you can't measure rap in terms of melodic music, because it doesn't have the same pattern of harmonies, scales, and doesn't have virtuosos and so on.

By the way, Matt, in the 1920s, Josephine Baker dressed like a whore as well... if she dressed at all. Maybe she is to blame for hip hop and all the terrible things it brings with it?

I obviously hit you to the quick.

Naming some black artists you like doesn't change the vocabulary you used before and doesn't change the attitude you displayed many times.
The fact that you feel the need to prove there are black people you like speaks books.
It goes without saying that there are talented people everywhere and of every race and I didn't even have the slightest idea that anyone could ever question that or feel the need to prove that he realizes it, because it's so fucking self-evident.

LOL!
I somehow knew you would use that "hankie"-joke and all that name calling again when you run out of arguments (which always happens very quickly).
Note, it isn't so cool, because
1. my nick is not my real name
2. using a joke for the third time doesn't make it funnier
3. I am tempted to make some equally silly puns about your real name in my language, with the difference that you wouldn't understand them :-)) Now, who is mentally the youngster here?

LMAO
Right now it's quite funny to waste my time watching you waste your time telling me you don't want to waste your time :-)
I should open a beer and wait for your next post.

""If I only choose my music by the complexity of it's structure, and only listen to the best stuff I find in that respect, after discovering Bach I wouldn't be allowed to listen to anything else any more. I prefer to listen to different music in different situations, and I can have great fun spending an evening dancing to a hip hop DJ who really knows his business."

Hank, this whole post was overall a very good read, and I pretty much agree with everything you said. I completely understand where you're coming from. However, it's just a difference in tastes between you and I, and what we get out of music as a whole. I highlighted this passage above, because for me personally, I listen to music to be challenged musically. I'm a musician, and most of the time I listen to music that makes me want to be a better musician and songwriter. That can hardly be accomplished while listening to today's top 40.

"but I don't think popular music has EVER been of high musical quality"

Uhmm.... let's review the charts in 1976: Bohemian Rhapsody and Hotel California. Charts in 2003 - 50 Cent and Blink 182. I rest my case.

"And yes GH I understand what you are saying. However, I feel that sex in music has gone way overboard, and has become really mainstream."

Let's go back to 1955, when Elvis was on the Ed Sullivan show. When he shook his hips the way he did, people cried out then just the way people cry out now when the newest Nelly video comes out. But I do agree that it has gone much too far, and this completely negative image of women and drugs must cool down.

The last paragraph of that long post (your third to last on page 2) was excellent, Matt. Right on the money.

"Right now it's quite funny to waste my time watching you waste your time telling me you don't want to waste your time :-)"

I think we realized the irony of the fact that it actually *needed* to be said. Otherwise, how would you know that was what he wanted to say? Hank, you're obviously a smart guy, so you shouldn't need to take cheap shots to prove your points.