When did Freddie get the HIV virus

Good point about the Mineshaft t-shirt. It does make me laugh when the media often try to say that Fred his his homosexuality; the Mineshaft t-shirt in a video played all over the world, a 'Heaven' t-shirt worn at gigs and parties in front of hundreds of thousands of people, aren't exactly hiding it! And that's before considering the 'tache, leather cap and trousers etc...!

[QUOTE]

[b]cmsdrums wrote: [/b] Good point about the Mineshaft t-shirt. It does make me laugh when the media often try to say that Fred his his homosexuality; the Mineshaft t-shirt in a video played all over the world, a 'Heaven' t-shirt worn at gigs and parties in front of hundreds of thousands of people, aren't exactly hiding it! And that's before considering the 'tache, leather cap and trousers etc...![/QUOTE]
yes, he wore those gay club shirts all the time! Mineshaft, Heaven and also I remember he wore Market Tavern shirt a lot on Magic Tour, which was a popular gay club in London (and I think he met Jim there too) but yes, all the signs were there before the 80s and he was definitely not hiding it. I guess people back then were too dumb to connect the dots....also, that red bandana he has at Rock Montreal.. I always seen it as a hanky code which indicated, in the gay scene, what kind of sex you prefer. and I heard a lot of Queen fans saying that Hot Space is like, definite gay era for Freddie and that's when it started but to me it's always been Jazz era. so yeah, I agree with you that it all came along way before the mustache and all that

Ever since I've found, not only about Freddie's death at the hand of AIDS but also about the same affliction affecting one of my best friends, I've made a bit of a research into this "gay plague", so bear with me. I don't think you can accurately date infection based only on symptoms of AIDS surfacing, because while indeed, the median age is around 8-10 years, almost 20% of infected people actually show symptoms much faster (less than 5 years after infection). In fact, it was within those people's ranks, that we began to "officially" notice the first casualties in 1981, with the virus probably setting the first strong foothold in the big cities of America in around 1976. Another cohort, made of almost 50% of infected people, show first AIDS related symptoms only after 10 years. Though most of them develop symptoms soon after. 

The best gauge, really is made through risk analysis, rather than incubation period. And sadly, this leads us to delving into Freddie's personal life, which is shameful, but "friends" have made it possible. It's almost impossible that he got it pre 1978, since he wasn't promiscuous and HIV wasn't all that spread. Plus, you can track his first gay relationship with David Minns, which ended in 1978. David never got infected. 1978 is from what I've heard, the year of change. He started having many night outs and it's unknown under who's company he spent them. I do know that from 1978 to 1979 he had an affair with Joe Fanelli and from 1979 to 1980 he had Tony Bastin keeping company. Now, Joe Fanelli himself died soon after Freddie did,  but Tony Bastin died in the mid 80s. Both were struck by AIDS and the latter most probably was infected by the time of his relationship. Does it mean that Freddie definitely got it then? No, but it kinda unearths the first...  probable exposure. If not then, then definitely, New York very early into the 80s, it would have been hard to dodge this plague with this kind of life style. By 1981, the time of the first cases, it is estimated that about 20% of gay man were already afflicted.

So yeah, going by all I've said, around 1978 - 1982 which can be tighten further to 1978-1980. Most probable year? [b]1979[/b] for me. Now there are two other points I'd like to make. Firstly, even if Freddie played safer after 1982, I think his path was very much sealed at that time, as were the paths of many gay man infected in the late 70s/ early 80s. In no way is anyone to blame for being infected in this time frame, because no one knew of this silent killer. Secondly, while Freddie might have become suspicious of being infected, probably scared at that thought, I refuse to believe he knew of his positive status before 1987, before the time he told Jim. Because I doubt Freddie would have ever knowingly put Jim at risk. And the alleged KS lesion which prompted testing, was most probably the first clear symptom of anything going awry.  HIV is pretty much silent, until AIDS strikes. And even after the onset of AIDS, you can still go on rather well, until you start going in this downward spiral, in which Freddie visibly fell by the late 88 / early 89. 

Ah, and one last point, there is this narrative that if Freddie survived for one more year, he could have been saved. That's very wishful thinking. There are many famous celebrities who have died in the 92-95 time frame. Medication could have perhaps further extended his lifespan, but I'd say... a better estimate is maybe around 3 years. Then indeed, the first combination treatment could have prolonged his life long enough that he'd get to try the PIs, which made appearance in... 95-96 (?) .

I have never heard of this living ten years thing with HIV back in the 1980's. Lol. Freddie only lived four years with the meds which is what I understand to be the average time back then. My understanding is a year or two without meds. Especially back in the 1980's. Honestly if Freddie had HIV before 1987 then he would be responsible to putting many people to death. As in murder.

I mean he went screwing around people out of the wa zoo. A left wing reporter from Rolling Stone Magazine went to one of their concerts and was horrified at how Freddie had a line of men waiting to fuck him in some room. So maybe that has to do with some things not being told but there is little to no chance that it was the early 1980's mere less the late 1970's. Very few people had it back then and most were dead by 1981-1982 and it would still be years before anyone even knew what they died from. The guitarist from the B-52s Ricky Wilson died in 1985 and they did not even realise it was from AIDS until a good number of months AFTER he died.

[QUOTE] [b]AlexRocks wrote:[/b]
I have never heard of this living ten years thing with HIV back in the 1980's. Lol. Freddie only lived four years with the meds which is what I understand to be the average time back then. My understanding is a year or two without meds. Especially back in the 1980's. Honestly if Freddie had HIV before 1987 then he would be responsible to putting many people to death. As in murder.
I mean he went screwing around people out of the wa zoo. A left wing reporter from Rolling Stone Magazine went to one of their concerts and was horrified at how Freddie had a line of men waiting to fuck him in some room. So maybe that has to do with some things not being told but there is little to no chance that it was the early 1980's mere less the late 1970's. Very few people had it back then and most were dead by 1981-1982 and it would still be years before anyone even knew what they died from. The guitarist from the B-52s Ricky Wilson died in 1985 and they did not even realise it was from AIDS until a good number of months AFTER he died.[/QUOTE]

One of the more disturbing aspects of the thread, more even than it's rather pointless speculative nature, is the apparent threat to public health given the lack of knowledge of this disease 30 years after it entered public consciousness. lvq is exactly right. About half of the people who have contracted the virus become symptomatic around the 10 year mark, with only small minority showing symptoms before that period, and a larger minority going past a decade and beyond. That has always been true because it's a measure of how long it typically takes HIV to wear down the immune system to the point of AIDS defining illnesses before diagnoses or medication. As a generally healthy person living well in a first world country there is no reason to speculate that Fred was outside of the norms for the disease and a first exposure in the late 70's is the most sound conclusion statistically speaking. Which is all anybody can reasonably go on, not that there's all that much reasonable about trying very hard to glean any of this in the first place.

I really hope all of you lol-ing and guessing 1,2,3 even 5 years aren't making assumptions about people in your real worlds based on ideas that the disease commonly develops that fast. Jeez. This should really be common knowledge. I recently read a news item that claimed only about 28% of HIV+ Americans have the virus under control. Part of that statistic is that about 20% of infected persons don't know they're infected. This kind of bad information can only contribute negatively to statistics like that. People really need to get that those who don't know they're infected typically thrive completely normally for a decade, and often longer.

I think what's hard to conceive for people is being HIV positive, while showing to be at the peak of your physical powers. And really, Freddie Mercury was very much at his peak from 80 to 86. He had to be, otherwise he never would have been able to join the band in so many tours. But that's the nature of HIV infection. You feel normal for an average of 10 years and only afterwards, do you show symptoms.

There is variability of course. In fact, Freddie living 4 years after an AIDS diagnostic is very much outside of the normal scope of AIDS prognosis. And had Freddie... been with Marry... monogamously until 1982 and only after, falling to these promiscuous life, then yes, post 1982 would have had been the probable answer. But Freddie started fulfillment in the late 70s. And had one almost certain exposure in a 1 year relationship. Not to say that was THE event. But it does highlight risk and the risk, in hindsight, was overt.

[QUOTE] [b]AlexRocks wrote:[/b]
Honestly if Freddie had HIV before 1987 then he would be responsible to putting many people to death. As in murder.
[/QUOTE]


Of course not.

[QUOTE] [b]lvq wrote:[/b]
Ever since I've found, not only about Freddie's death at the hand of AIDS but also about the same affliction affecting one of my best friends, I've made a bit of a research into this "gay plague", so bear with me. I don't think you can accurately date infection based only on symptoms of AIDS surfacing, because while indeed, the median age is around 8-10 years, almost 20% of infected people actually show symptoms much faster (less than 5 years after infection). In fact, it was within those people's ranks, that we began to "officially" notice the first casualties in 1981, with the virus probably setting the first strong foothold in the big cities of America in around 1976. Another cohort, made of almost 50% of infected people, show first AIDS related symptoms only after 10 years. Though most of them develop symptoms soon after. The best gauge, really is made through risk analysis, rather than incubation period. And sadly, this leads us to delving into Freddie's personal life, which is shameful, but "friends" have made it possible. It's almost impossible that he got it pre 1978, since he wasn't promiscuous and HIV wasn't all that spread. Plus, you can track his first gay relationship with David Minns, which ended in 1978. David never got infected. 1978 is from what I've heard, the year of change. He started having many night outs and it's unknown under who's company he spent them. I do know that from 1978 to 1979 he had an affair with Joe Fanelli and from 1979 to 1980 he had Tony Bastin keeping company. Now, Joe Fanelli himself died soon after Freddie did,  but Tony Bastin died in the mid 80s. Both were struck by AIDS and the latter most probably was infected by the time of his relationship. Does it mean that Freddie definitely got it then? No, but it kinda unearths the first...  probable exposure. If not then, then definitely, New York very early into the 80s, it would have been hard to dodge this plague with this kind of life style. By 1981, the time of the first cases, it is estimated that about 20% of gay man were already afflicted.So yeah, going by all I've said, around 1978 - 1982 which can be tighten further to 1978-1980. Most probable year? [b]1979[/b] for me. Now there are two other points I'd like to make. Firstly, even if Freddie played safer after 1982, I think his path was very much sealed at that time, as were the paths of many gay man infected in the late 70s/ early 80s. In no way is anyone to blame for being infected in this time frame, because no one knew of this silent killer. Secondly, while Freddie might have become suspicious of being infected, probably scared at that thought, I refuse to believe he knew of his positive status before 1987, before the time he told Jim. Because I doubt Freddie would have ever knowingly put Jim at risk. And the alleged KS lesion which prompted testing, was most probably the first clear symptom of anything going awry.  HIV is pretty much silent, until AIDS strikes. And even after the onset of AIDS, you can still go on rather well, until you start going in this downward spiral, in which Freddie visibly fell by the late 88 / early 89. Ah, and one last point, there is this narrative that if Freddie survived for one more year, he could have been saved. That's very wishful thinking. There are many famous celebrities who have died in the 92-95 time frame. Medication could have perhaps further extended his lifespan, but I'd say... a better estimate is maybe around 3 years. Then indeed, the first combination treatment could have prolonged his life long enough that he'd get to try the PIs, which made appearance in... 95-96 (?) .[/QUOTE]


Very good post. Thanks much!

Of course Freddie would have been guilty of murder if he had HIV and went around screwing people and infecting them. What planet are you on?! You say he had it for ten years before 1987. So how is that not so? As it is he said himself that he did not start living clean and abstinate until he found out he had the disease. My understanding is the same it was not until shortly after he contacted it that he got checked for it because in the 1980's you could not live years with the disease. That's why people could only live a few years with the medicine and it was a big deal when people could live up to ten years with the medicines. Of course now the big deal is that people can supposedly live life much longer.

Freddie could not be guilty of premeditated murder because he did not intentionally kill anyone. At the most, he could be guilty of negligent homicide, but even that is a stretch because it implies that he knew that his actions COULD cause death but did them anyway. Freddie didn't know he had HIV at the time he was promiscuous so he wouldn't have known he was harming anyone.

@AlexRocks The thing you're missing is that, while indeed, people... diagnosed with AIDS had a bleak prognosis, those people harbored HIV, the virus which causes AIDS, for years before the first symptoms arose, unwittingly infecting some their partners.

HIV infection works like this: you get infected, the virus multiplies and it slowly, but systematically destroys your immune system. Now, there is a stage in this process, where the immune system is so weak that it becomes susceptible to viruses, parasites... that, normally, it would have no problem dealing with. Only then, does one develop telling symptoms. But until that stage, the virus remains silent... in the way that, one infected, generally does not sport any serious symptoms and feels perfectly fine. This asymptomatic period can last and does generally last for many years. Only when the person develops specific symptoms (caused by Opportunistic infections, acquired due to a weakened immune system), is that person diagnosed with AIDS.

People diagnosed in the early 80s, indeed, didn't live long, because they already had developed AIDS by the time they were diagnosed. They were in basically... the end stage of the HIV infection. But those people had been infected for years before the onset of AIDS, time in which, the virus was working hard in spreading/damaging their immune system. It's just that, only the AIDS stage of the virus, was the stage that prompted doctor visits, because that's the time they felt the serious symptoms. You don't go to the doctor when you feel perfectly fine, you go when you are ill.

Until 84, AIDS diagnostic was made solely by virtue of the specific AIDS related symptoms and the weakened immune system. A test was made available in late 84. With that test, people could be screened for the virus, thus be diagnosed way before the onset of AIDS. However, you still had to take the test, to know if you are a carrier or not.

In the 80s, since there was no medicine/medicine was ineffective to slow HIV progression and because of the stigma attached to a HIV infection diagnosis, many people skipped testing and only got tested after they developed AIDS specific symptoms. Now, Freddie Mercury could have gotten tested and perhaps should have gotten tested earlier than he did. But when he did get tested, he was diagnosed with full blown AIDS, which means that, in the years prior, he was a carrier. How many years? Well... you can infer that by tracking down... the risk events. And really, from 1978 onward, those risk events became increasingly numerous. Culminating with perhaps that one relationship with Tony Bastin, who most probably was a carrier at that time. But that's the... official virus exposure, who knows how many times Freddie was exposed to HIV throughout this promiscuous period. Exposure doesn't necessarily mean infection, when exposed, there is this small chance of contracting virus, depending on the type of exposure. But obviously, with many exposures, that chance increases. Promiscuity made that chance very big and Freddie fell victim.

He lived FOUR years with full blown AIDS?

Yes. It can happen. It's not common though. Freddie developed a Kaposi Sarcoma lesion on his arm, which prompted him to get tested and eventually get diagnosed. Now, there was these medical articles I've read, stating that Kaposi Sarcoma really is one of the milder of opportunistic infections one can acquire and that AIDS patients diagnosed with it have a much better prognosis... than, for example, patients diagnosed with pneumonia, which especially in the early 80s, was absolutely ravaging. Also, KS is not lethal generally, unless it affects your internal organs, especially your lungs.

There is also the chance that, his immune system was still not in as worse condition as a regular AIDS patient, as Kaposi Sarcoma is known to surface even at higher levels of CD4 helper cells, (the cells which are attacked by the virus) though it's less likely.

Finally, he did take what medication was available. Medication at that time could prolong life of AIDS patients for a few months.

There are many variables to AIDS prognosis. Most generally die within one year of diagnostic, without medication, but some manage to live on for years. For Freddie, I'd say, AIDS effects really started showing in 1989. Which explains the drastic loss of weight. In 1988-1987, I'd suspect he was more troubled by the profound side effects of the medication taken, than by the disease itself. They were using AZT at that time, but they were prescribing very large doses of it, which made it very intoxicating to the human body.

The same variability goes for HIV incubation period. You have people who have maintained a reasonable CD4 count for decades after infection, though even those people, show decrease in their immune capacity. You also have people who experience very rapid progression, taking in the span of months or a few years for the first symptoms to surface. The median for incubation is around 10 years, but that's an average, which is why I prefer tracking infection through risk events, rather than a median incubation period. In Freddie's case, we know he began living this promiscuous life in the 1978. We also know that one of his partners was likely to have been infected at the time of a 1 year relationship, in 1979-1980. Finally, New York was one of the cities most heavily hit by disease and we know Queen spent quite a bit of time there. All really point out to 1978 - 1982 being the main period of infection, more likely near the beginning of the interval.

I think chances are very good that Freddie has been exposed to HIV strands from different people. From those exposures, you need only one to click and result in infection. I say this especially when looking at Freddie's track record. Tony Bastin, Bill Reid, Winnie the German all died of AIDS years before Freddie did and all had relationships with Freddie. And those are only official relationships.

There is also the rumour that Freddie and Kenny Everett shared a lover in somebody called Nikolai who died of aids way before Freddie, so they both could of got it from him

Its unfortunate that Freddie got the disease when the drugs were not strong enough to help him survive like people can nowadays

I think there are good chances Nikolai infected Everett who died 12-13 years after that exposure . (a number close to the median of life after HIV exposure, especially considering the advancement in medication) But I believe both Nikolai and Freddie were already infected at that time. Though of course, it is possible that infection was triggered by this event, just not that likely, given the many events that happened before this one.