[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
Thing is, personally, I don't WANT religion. But that's me. To your point, there are those who want and appreciate having a 'truth' they can trust, and modifying that truth to fit the times can only be a good thing, IMO. But it's not happening to the core religion. That remains unchanged. The Catholic church won't soon be pro-choice or gay union. However, sects of Christians might (continue to) branch off to form their own church based on their RC beliefs. This "new" church will be progressive but the mother church will remain steadfast and therefore defy attempts at change.
[/QUOTE]
I'm not trying to take you to task, MFM, so please don't take my comments the wrong way. I do want to point out one thing, however.
I fully understand your comments about the fears of going to hell simply because you might have accidentally said a curse word or had one sip of an alcoholic beverage. I hate it when religion gets so caught up with outward things that it loses focus on inward change. I also think that scientists who spend their time trying to disprove the literal truth of the Bible in order to show religion's mistakes are just as eggheaded as those fundamentalists who try to prove the same literal truth to show its priority.
But don't confuse dogma with what religion can provide. I have a lot of issues with the dogma of the church and I agree with many of your sentiments. But I also think that there are a lot of interesting 20th century theologians that have insightful things to say about the changing nature of religion.
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I've done Philosophy. I can safely say I was just as much of an Agnostic before as I was afterwards. This was mainly because we debated and debated with points for and against the existence of God and both sides holding very good arguments!
... This just pulled me from one side to the other until I realized I was better in the middle being an agnostic.
I recommend you have a look @ any of Richard Dawkins books and also 'The Puzzle of God' by Peter Vardy.
At the end of the day, It's all a matter of interpretation.
Some things are unexplainable and can only be accounted for by assuming its from God. However, other things can be explained by a more realistic approach - science.
Take a course in philosophy, not only will it blow your mind, but it'll also make you leave everyday with your head buzzing (but also aching with all the thinking)
... This just pulled me from one side to the other until I realized I was better in the middle being an agnostic.
I recommend you have a look @ any of Richard Dawkins books and also 'The Puzzle of God' by Peter Vardy.
At the end of the day, It's all a matter of interpretation.
Some things are unexplainable and can only be accounted for by assuming its from God. However, other things can be explained by a more realistic approach - science.
Take a course in philosophy, not only will it blow your mind, but it'll also make you leave everyday with your head buzzing (but also aching with all the thinking)
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<font color=#00B5D6>Rocky<font size=1>!! wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Well, now that my brains are adequately fried, I'd like to state an opinion. I am pretty much Agnostic right now. Maybe Theistic. I belive that there can never be any proof of a God, but that does not deny a God's exsistence. My blog has been about religion ALOT recently.
I agree with CMUHistoryGirl, in that we should just live for our lives and be good people without worrying about the whole Heaven/Hell aspect. And I also agree that nothing has been proven, and everyone who says the Evolution Theory is proven is wrong. Although I do belive in Evolution, and I am happy that I was able to learn of it from a young age.
I believe that people let religion get WAY too overpowering in their lives. Yes, religion is supposed to be a way of life guidance, but people I know take everything WAY TOO LITERALLY. And I just think that it destroys people when they think that way. In my opinion, once again, it is almost like brainwashing.
A Catholic friend recently got angry with me (and still won't talk to me, two days later), because I said someone was my "second God." And that is the type of thing that SHOULD NOT be caused by religion.
And I have also noticed that most people just believe what they've been taught, how they've been raised. So I think that something should be done about that. You cannot blame a religious person for believing only what they have known.
[/QUOTE]
well said!
i believe pretty much the same thing you do, i cant prove a god exists, but i dont doubt there was some being that created everything. to me, it sorta just pieces the puzzle together. and i also agree with CMUhistorygirl...and basically this post XD
i dont go to church, but every onces in a while i pray. i believe it helps me, and if i dont ask for too much, my prayers will be granted in one way. if someone dies no matter how much i pray, then i beleive there was a reason for them to die. that includes myself.
as for evolution, i can agree with most of it. as it was said in another thread, the bible has been mistranslated thruought the years, and because of a patriarchal society, has deleted some important figures that were female, and i believe it was TQ who raised the question that Jesus may have been female. and also just some other stories and documents were deleted throughout the centuries. decent people use the religious books as a guide, and not a weapon.
...im sorry im rambling. i guess all i really had to say is i agree with you both.
I agree with CMUHistoryGirl, in that we should just live for our lives and be good people without worrying about the whole Heaven/Hell aspect. And I also agree that nothing has been proven, and everyone who says the Evolution Theory is proven is wrong. Although I do belive in Evolution, and I am happy that I was able to learn of it from a young age.
I believe that people let religion get WAY too overpowering in their lives. Yes, religion is supposed to be a way of life guidance, but people I know take everything WAY TOO LITERALLY. And I just think that it destroys people when they think that way. In my opinion, once again, it is almost like brainwashing.
A Catholic friend recently got angry with me (and still won't talk to me, two days later), because I said someone was my "second God." And that is the type of thing that SHOULD NOT be caused by religion.
And I have also noticed that most people just believe what they've been taught, how they've been raised. So I think that something should be done about that. You cannot blame a religious person for believing only what they have known.
[/QUOTE]
well said!
i believe pretty much the same thing you do, i cant prove a god exists, but i dont doubt there was some being that created everything. to me, it sorta just pieces the puzzle together. and i also agree with CMUhistorygirl...and basically this post XD
i dont go to church, but every onces in a while i pray. i believe it helps me, and if i dont ask for too much, my prayers will be granted in one way. if someone dies no matter how much i pray, then i beleive there was a reason for them to die. that includes myself.
as for evolution, i can agree with most of it. as it was said in another thread, the bible has been mistranslated thruought the years, and because of a patriarchal society, has deleted some important figures that were female, and i believe it was TQ who raised the question that Jesus may have been female. and also just some other stories and documents were deleted throughout the centuries. decent people use the religious books as a guide, and not a weapon.
...im sorry im rambling. i guess all i really had to say is i agree with you both.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Zeni wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
I'm not trying to take you to task, MFM, so please don't take my comments the wrong way. [/QUOTE]
I understand and feel the same about my replies to you (and others).
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Zeni wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
But don't confuse dogma with what religion can provide. I have a lot of issues with the dogma of the church and I agree with many of your sentiments. But I also think that there are a lot of interesting 20th century theologians that have insightful things to say about the changing nature of religion.
[/QUOTE]
I have no doubt there are interesting ideas being brought to the religious table. Some are regressive thoughts, some progressive. But I'm only interested in them as they relate to past and current events. I see no value in supernatural belief on its own. I see no value in praying to that supernatural being. I see no value in the preoccupation the world has with conflicting beliefs. If anything, I see it perpetuating pain and alienation.
As to what religion can provide... no matter what I read, hear or see regarding religion and the religious, I do not feel it provides (or has ever provided) anything of value. Perhaps I simply fail to see what you and others see, because, in my opinion, religious belief is false belief. Wasteful belief. Of course, many claim it gives them comfort. Need I say again, that comfort and religion seem worlds apart to me? In fact, they appear to me as opposites. However, if religion indeed provides comfort for some, then fine, what can I say? For me, a simple hug provides comfort and, no matter what, it won't cost me my soul.
I'm not trying to take you to task, MFM, so please don't take my comments the wrong way. [/QUOTE]
I understand and feel the same about my replies to you (and others).
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Zeni wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
But don't confuse dogma with what religion can provide. I have a lot of issues with the dogma of the church and I agree with many of your sentiments. But I also think that there are a lot of interesting 20th century theologians that have insightful things to say about the changing nature of religion.
[/QUOTE]
I have no doubt there are interesting ideas being brought to the religious table. Some are regressive thoughts, some progressive. But I'm only interested in them as they relate to past and current events. I see no value in supernatural belief on its own. I see no value in praying to that supernatural being. I see no value in the preoccupation the world has with conflicting beliefs. If anything, I see it perpetuating pain and alienation.
As to what religion can provide... no matter what I read, hear or see regarding religion and the religious, I do not feel it provides (or has ever provided) anything of value. Perhaps I simply fail to see what you and others see, because, in my opinion, religious belief is false belief. Wasteful belief. Of course, many claim it gives them comfort. Need I say again, that comfort and religion seem worlds apart to me? In fact, they appear to me as opposites. However, if religion indeed provides comfort for some, then fine, what can I say? For me, a simple hug provides comfort and, no matter what, it won't cost me my soul.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Zeni wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
But don't confuse dogma with what religion can provide. I have a lot of issues with the dogma of the church and I agree with many of your sentiments. But I also think that there are a lot of interesting 20th century theologians that have insightful things to say about the changing nature of religion.
[/QUOTE]
I have no doubt there are interesting ideas being brought to the religious table. Some are regressive thoughts, some progressive. But I'm only interested in them as they relate to past and current events. I see no value in supernatural belief on its own. I see no value in praying to that supernatural being. I see no value in the preoccupation the world has with conflicting beliefs. If anything, I see it perpetuating pain and alienation.
As to what religion can provide... no matter what I read, hear or see regarding religion and the religious, I do not feel it provides (or has ever provided) anything of value. Perhaps I simply fail to see what you and others see, because, in my opinion, religious belief is false belief. Wasteful belief. Of course, many claim it gives them comfort. Need I say again, that comfort and religion seem worlds apart to me? In fact, they appear to me as opposites. However, if religion indeed provides comfort for some, then fine, what can I say? For me, a simple hug provides comfort and, no matter what, it won't cost me my soul.
[/QUOTE]
Ironically, this is the same opinion most children have concerning what they learn in grammar/high school. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that the truth could be elusive, or unattainable.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Zeni wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
But don't confuse dogma with what religion can provide. I have a lot of issues with the dogma of the church and I agree with many of your sentiments. But I also think that there are a lot of interesting 20th century theologians that have insightful things to say about the changing nature of religion.
[/QUOTE]
I have no doubt there are interesting ideas being brought to the religious table. Some are regressive thoughts, some progressive. But I'm only interested in them as they relate to past and current events. I see no value in supernatural belief on its own. I see no value in praying to that supernatural being. I see no value in the preoccupation the world has with conflicting beliefs. If anything, I see it perpetuating pain and alienation.
As to what religion can provide... no matter what I read, hear or see regarding religion and the religious, I do not feel it provides (or has ever provided) anything of value. Perhaps I simply fail to see what you and others see, because, in my opinion, religious belief is false belief. Wasteful belief. Of course, many claim it gives them comfort. Need I say again, that comfort and religion seem worlds apart to me? In fact, they appear to me as opposites. However, if religion indeed provides comfort for some, then fine, what can I say? For me, a simple hug provides comfort and, no matter what, it won't cost me my soul.
[/QUOTE]
Ironically, this is the same opinion most children have concerning what they learn in grammar/high school. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that the truth could be elusive, or unattainable.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME] I'm not saying you're wrong, just that the truth could be elusive, or unattainable. [/QUOTE]
What truth?
What truth?
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Kween<h6>Indeed... wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<font color=teal>Cookies!<h6>A scientist wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<font color=pink>Account Deleted wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Isn't God gay?[/QUOTE]
Can you fuck off? People are trying to have an intelligent discussion here and you always come and screw up threads. You used to be a cool person on here and now you're one of the biggest spamming dicks on Queenzone. [/QUOTE]
XDDDDDDD "Ohmy!" XD[/QUOTE]
Oh, the drama!
Can you fuck off? People are trying to have an intelligent discussion here and you always come and screw up threads. You used to be a cool person on here and now you're one of the biggest spamming dicks on Queenzone. [/QUOTE]
XDDDDDDD "Ohmy!" XD[/QUOTE]
Oh, the drama!
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Mr.Jingles wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]CMU HistoryGirl wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Mr.Jingles wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<font color=pink>Account Deleted wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Isn't God gay?[/QUOTE]
God is either gay or a woman.[/QUOTE]
I take issue with that, Dan.
To quote the brilliant Mr. George Carlin:
"I believe that God must be a man because screwed up results like this indicate that maybe he just doesn't give a shit. No woman could or would ever screw things up this badly."[/QUOTE]
Could be... but I agree more with the Carlos Mencia argument.
If God (as a male) had anything to say, he'd say it in a 32 page manual, but instead he had to say it in an entire book of 1000 pages. Only a woman has that much shit to say.[/QUOTE]lmao
xDDDDDD
God is either gay or a woman.[/QUOTE]
I take issue with that, Dan.
To quote the brilliant Mr. George Carlin:
"I believe that God must be a man because screwed up results like this indicate that maybe he just doesn't give a shit. No woman could or would ever screw things up this badly."[/QUOTE]
Could be... but I agree more with the Carlos Mencia argument.
If God (as a male) had anything to say, he'd say it in a 32 page manual, but instead he had to say it in an entire book of 1000 pages. Only a woman has that much shit to say.[/QUOTE]lmao
xDDDDDD
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<font color=pink>Account Deleted wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Kween&lt;h6&gt;Indeed... wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]&lt;font color=teal&gt;Cookies!&lt;h6&gt;A scientist wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]&lt;font color=pink&gt;Account Deleted wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Isn't God gay?[/QUOTE]
Can you fuck off? People are trying to have an intelligent discussion here and you always come and screw up threads. You used to be a cool person on here and now you're one of the biggest spamming dicks on Queenzone. [/QUOTE]
XDDDDDDD &quot;Ohmy!&quot; XD[/QUOTE]
Oh, the drama![/QUOTE]
Oh, the vaginas!
Can you fuck off? People are trying to have an intelligent discussion here and you always come and screw up threads. You used to be a cool person on here and now you're one of the biggest spamming dicks on Queenzone. [/QUOTE]
XDDDDDDD &quot;Ohmy!&quot; XD[/QUOTE]
Oh, the drama![/QUOTE]
Oh, the vaginas!
I've heard these questions SO MANY TIMES!!!
And don't worry. It doesn't mean your going to
hell if you question your belifes.
It only means your human and normal. Everyone
is curious and its only normal to ask.
Who ever says your going to hell just cause your
curious to know is...well to me...weird
Cause I mean, C'MON! I bet anything they even
wondered.
And don't worry. It doesn't mean your going to
hell if you question your belifes.
It only means your human and normal. Everyone
is curious and its only normal to ask.
Who ever says your going to hell just cause your
curious to know is...well to me...weird
Cause I mean, C'MON! I bet anything they even
wondered.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Like I always say, I'd be an agnostic, but that implies I actually put some thought into it.[/QUOTE]
Ha ha! I prefer to use the word "apathetic".
Everyone, check this out:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/070406/world/international_easter_philippines_dc
"Filipinos crucify themselves on Good Friday"
Unbelievable...
Ha ha! I prefer to use the word "apathetic".
Everyone, check this out:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/070406/world/international_easter_philippines_dc
"Filipinos crucify themselves on Good Friday"
Unbelievable...
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Mr.Jingles wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]CMU HistoryGirl wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Mr.Jingles wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<font color=pink>Account Deleted wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Isn't God gay?[/QUOTE]
God is either gay or a woman.[/QUOTE]
I take issue with that, Dan.
To quote the brilliant Mr. George Carlin:
"I believe that God must be a man because screwed up results like this indicate that maybe he just doesn't give a shit. No woman could or would ever screw things up this badly."[/QUOTE]
Could be... but I agree more with the Carlos Mencia argument.
If God (as a male) had anything to say, he'd say it in a 32 page manual, but instead he had to say it in an entire book of 1000 pages. Only a woman has that much shit to say.[/QUOTE]
**rolls eyes**
Of course....
Clarity, after all, is a bad thing.
How did I know you'd bring that one up? **sticks out tongue at Dan**
God is either gay or a woman.[/QUOTE]
I take issue with that, Dan.
To quote the brilliant Mr. George Carlin:
"I believe that God must be a man because screwed up results like this indicate that maybe he just doesn't give a shit. No woman could or would ever screw things up this badly."[/QUOTE]
Could be... but I agree more with the Carlos Mencia argument.
If God (as a male) had anything to say, he'd say it in a 32 page manual, but instead he had to say it in an entire book of 1000 pages. Only a woman has that much shit to say.[/QUOTE]
**rolls eyes**
Of course....
Clarity, after all, is a bad thing.
How did I know you'd bring that one up? **sticks out tongue at Dan**
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME] I'm not saying you're wrong, just that the truth could be elusive, or unattainable. [/QUOTE]
What truth?[/QUOTE]
How useful/useless/beneficial/injurious religion is.
What truth?[/QUOTE]
How useful/useless/beneficial/injurious religion is.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
Everyone, check this out:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/070406/world/international_easter_philippines_dc
"Filipinos crucify themselves on Good Friday"
Unbelievable...
[/QUOTE]
"The atmosphere was festive, with hawkers selling beer, ice-cream and souvenir whips. Led Zeppelin's "Stairway to Heaven" blared out from speakers before the penitents approached the crosses."
The song is even overplayed at mock crucifixions in the Phillipines.
Everyone, check this out:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/070406/world/international_easter_philippines_dc
"Filipinos crucify themselves on Good Friday"
Unbelievable...
[/QUOTE]
"The atmosphere was festive, with hawkers selling beer, ice-cream and souvenir whips. Led Zeppelin's "Stairway to Heaven" blared out from speakers before the penitents approached the crosses."
The song is even overplayed at mock crucifixions in the Phillipines.
I was raised Wisconsin Synod Lutheran and faithfully went to Sunday School and did the confirmation thing and kept going to church until I graduated from high school when I decided, no more! I never liked it from the get-go. I found it offensive. Especially the baby baptisms wherein at one month old they had to be rescued and given to god or else....??? WHAT could possibly be more innocent and pure than a baby?!!! I never liked the Jesus image hanging on the cross. I thought it looked ghoulish (and, yes, I do know what it is supposed to mean.) And I never liked reciting the Nicene Creed where we were all "sinners," etc. The sermons I heard were all old testament stories which for the life of me I couldn't understand the relevance to the day such as Jonah and the whale. The pews were hard, and I had to keep pinching myself to stay awake, and there was always an elderly woman sitting in front of me who had one of those fox fur collars draped around her shoulders complete with face and open eyes that stared at me. I dabbled in a lot of religions after that, but I never found one that made any sense. My searching gradually faded away, and I like that.
I had, shall we call it, a spiritual experience on a summer Saturday around 6 pm in 1983. It happened once and never again. I was sitting in a chair when I started noticing my breathing changing. It was getting slower, and slower, and slower still but not deeper or distressed. It was like it was elongating... and I was calmly observing this as it had never happened to me before. Finally I stopped breathing altogether, again without distress, and thoughts or revelations came into my mind. "Oh, I see. We don't have to breathe." "Oh, I see. We don't have to eat or drink." Oh, I see. We are spirits that take on bodies." It was revealed, "There is nothing to fear." My mind rather argued about that as I thought of all of the dangerous situations you could get into if you went out and about with no awareness of being careful, and it was revealed again, "There is nothing to fear." A feeling of absolute peace and joy became me. I was in harmony with the universe. I was in harmony with all of creation. In harmony there is no one or no thing greater or lesser than you. If you could take the absolute best thing that ever happened to you (or me) and multiply it by a bazillion, gazillion times, it would not even remotely compare to the extraordinariness of the harmony. The harmony was incompatible with wars and hate and fighting, and I knew the harmony was not present in humans as I knew or read about them. It was, "The peace that passeth all understanding." (Which is a quote from the bible.) Even though this state of mind or being was something absolutely unfamiliar to me, it felt natural, and while I was in it, I thought of nothing else - that this is the way it is supposed to be. I was in this state for about 45 minutes (not breathing), and it gradually and gently went away over the next day or so, and I was dumped back into the mortal human experience, breathing and all. My questions to "IT" afterwards were, and still are, "Why did you come? Why did you leave? How do I get you back?!!!" There was a sacrificial kind of component to it as well as in if it had to be, I would forego the bliss for all eternity if the rest of the world could just have it.
A while later I came across two books that referred to this same kind of experience. Pathways Through to Space, and the other was Cosmic Consciousness written by a man with the last name of Buche who experienced the bliss for about 30 seconds only, and ever after went on a search to discover who else had done so as well.
No, I was not taking any drugs.
The Bliss / The Harmony was the realist thing that ever happened to me.
I had, shall we call it, a spiritual experience on a summer Saturday around 6 pm in 1983. It happened once and never again. I was sitting in a chair when I started noticing my breathing changing. It was getting slower, and slower, and slower still but not deeper or distressed. It was like it was elongating... and I was calmly observing this as it had never happened to me before. Finally I stopped breathing altogether, again without distress, and thoughts or revelations came into my mind. "Oh, I see. We don't have to breathe." "Oh, I see. We don't have to eat or drink." Oh, I see. We are spirits that take on bodies." It was revealed, "There is nothing to fear." My mind rather argued about that as I thought of all of the dangerous situations you could get into if you went out and about with no awareness of being careful, and it was revealed again, "There is nothing to fear." A feeling of absolute peace and joy became me. I was in harmony with the universe. I was in harmony with all of creation. In harmony there is no one or no thing greater or lesser than you. If you could take the absolute best thing that ever happened to you (or me) and multiply it by a bazillion, gazillion times, it would not even remotely compare to the extraordinariness of the harmony. The harmony was incompatible with wars and hate and fighting, and I knew the harmony was not present in humans as I knew or read about them. It was, "The peace that passeth all understanding." (Which is a quote from the bible.) Even though this state of mind or being was something absolutely unfamiliar to me, it felt natural, and while I was in it, I thought of nothing else - that this is the way it is supposed to be. I was in this state for about 45 minutes (not breathing), and it gradually and gently went away over the next day or so, and I was dumped back into the mortal human experience, breathing and all. My questions to "IT" afterwards were, and still are, "Why did you come? Why did you leave? How do I get you back?!!!" There was a sacrificial kind of component to it as well as in if it had to be, I would forego the bliss for all eternity if the rest of the world could just have it.
A while later I came across two books that referred to this same kind of experience. Pathways Through to Space, and the other was Cosmic Consciousness written by a man with the last name of Buche who experienced the bliss for about 30 seconds only, and ever after went on a search to discover who else had done so as well.
No, I was not taking any drugs.
The Bliss / The Harmony was the realist thing that ever happened to me.