Drugs are not the only causes of altered states of consciousness...
They sure help, though.
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[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME] I'm not saying you're wrong, just that the truth could be elusive, or unattainable. [/QUOTE]
What truth?[/QUOTE]
How useful/useless/beneficial/injurious religion is.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps it's not so much a truth as in "I WILL use math in my lifetime", but a hope or wishful thinking as in "I've followed the rules of god, I hope to reach heaven and have it be as I've been told."
What truth?[/QUOTE]
How useful/useless/beneficial/injurious religion is.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps it's not so much a truth as in "I WILL use math in my lifetime", but a hope or wishful thinking as in "I've followed the rules of god, I hope to reach heaven and have it be as I've been told."
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME] Everyone, check this out:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/070406/world/international_easter_philippines_dc
"Filipinos crucify themselves on Good Friday"
Unbelievable...
[/QUOTE]
Absolutely unbelievable. And to think, as a kid I thought fasting on good Friday was harsh. Some people are just sick.
The whole article threw me, but I had to read this line twice -
"Some foreigners have previously been crucified including a Belgian nun and a Japanese man, who later allowed footage of his ordeal to be used in a pornographic film."
Um... what?!
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/070406/world/international_easter_philippines_dc
"Filipinos crucify themselves on Good Friday"
Unbelievable...
[/QUOTE]
Absolutely unbelievable. And to think, as a kid I thought fasting on good Friday was harsh. Some people are just sick.
The whole article threw me, but I had to read this line twice -
"Some foreigners have previously been crucified including a Belgian nun and a Japanese man, who later allowed footage of his ordeal to be used in a pornographic film."
Um... what?!
"Some foreigners have previously been crucified including a Belgian nun and a Japanese man, who later allowed footage of his ordeal to be used in a pornographic film."
You can't buy comedy like that.
You can't buy comedy like that.
Every religion has it's extremes.
But this is just fucked up.
But this is just fucked up.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME] I'm not saying you're wrong, just that the truth could be elusive, or unattainable. [/QUOTE]
What truth?[/QUOTE]
How useful/useless/beneficial/injurious religion is.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps it's not so much a truth as in "I WILL use math in my lifetime", but a hope or wishful thinking as in "I've followed the rules of god, I hope to reach heaven and have it be as I've been told."
[/QUOTE]
Not necessarily that, but rather religion could inspire one to partake in charity, help others, etc.
What truth?[/QUOTE]
How useful/useless/beneficial/injurious religion is.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps it's not so much a truth as in "I WILL use math in my lifetime", but a hope or wishful thinking as in "I've followed the rules of god, I hope to reach heaven and have it be as I've been told."
[/QUOTE]
Not necessarily that, but rather religion could inspire one to partake in charity, help others, etc.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
Not necessarily that, but rather religion could inspire one to partake in charity, help others, etc. [/QUOTE]
Please tell me you don't think a person needs religion in order to partake in charity drives or to assist others. Speaking for myself, I belong to, volunteer and donate to a multitude of charities and organizations meant to help those in need and never once have I been connected to a religious charity. In fact, I avoid them at all costs.
I think the organization of charitable groups, the bringing together of people - whether it be troubled youth or lonely elderly folk - can, is and will continue to be done without connection to religion. Yes, there are religious groups doing it as well, but I cannot be convinced that religion itself is what prompts people to partake.
And what I was speaking to originally, was what religion can provide - the religious beliefs, the prayer, the personal gain or whatever from religion itself. Any group a person belongs to will have an impact on their life - a church, a street gang, a rock band. It doesn't matter. The point is – again in my opinion – that RELIGION for religion's sake does not provide anything of value. If anything, it smothers free thought and frightens people into doing good rather than convincing them to do good for goodness' sake.
Not necessarily that, but rather religion could inspire one to partake in charity, help others, etc. [/QUOTE]
Please tell me you don't think a person needs religion in order to partake in charity drives or to assist others. Speaking for myself, I belong to, volunteer and donate to a multitude of charities and organizations meant to help those in need and never once have I been connected to a religious charity. In fact, I avoid them at all costs.
I think the organization of charitable groups, the bringing together of people - whether it be troubled youth or lonely elderly folk - can, is and will continue to be done without connection to religion. Yes, there are religious groups doing it as well, but I cannot be convinced that religion itself is what prompts people to partake.
And what I was speaking to originally, was what religion can provide - the religious beliefs, the prayer, the personal gain or whatever from religion itself. Any group a person belongs to will have an impact on their life - a church, a street gang, a rock band. It doesn't matter. The point is – again in my opinion – that RELIGION for religion's sake does not provide anything of value. If anything, it smothers free thought and frightens people into doing good rather than convincing them to do good for goodness' sake.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME] I'm not saying you're wrong, just that the truth could be elusive, or unattainable. [/QUOTE]
What truth?[/QUOTE]
How useful/useless/beneficial/injurious religion is.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps it's not so much a truth as in "I WILL use math in my lifetime", but a hope or wishful thinking as in "I've followed the rules of god, I hope to reach heaven and have it be as I've been told."
[/QUOTE]
Not necessarily that, but rather religion could inspire one to partake in charity, help others, etc.[/QUOTE]
...and that's the aspect of religion that you don't see in the news.
Controversy, violence, intolerance, hatred, and extremism sell far more headlines than compassion, love, and kindness.
What truth?[/QUOTE]
How useful/useless/beneficial/injurious religion is.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps it's not so much a truth as in "I WILL use math in my lifetime", but a hope or wishful thinking as in "I've followed the rules of god, I hope to reach heaven and have it be as I've been told."
[/QUOTE]
Not necessarily that, but rather religion could inspire one to partake in charity, help others, etc.[/QUOTE]
...and that's the aspect of religion that you don't see in the news.
Controversy, violence, intolerance, hatred, and extremism sell far more headlines than compassion, love, and kindness.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Mr.Jingles wrote: [/QUOTENAME] ...and that's the aspect of religion that you don't see in the news.
[/QUOTE]
But it is not exclusive to religion. If religion did not exist, would no one care about anyone else? Would there not be organizations built to help those in need? What about those of us happily helping without religion? We're not doing it so we'll be rewarded in some afterlife. We're doing it because it's the right thing to do in the here and now... and helping others feels pretty good, too.
This is simply not a strong argument for the value of religion. Though, IMO, no argument is strong enough.
[/QUOTE]
But it is not exclusive to religion. If religion did not exist, would no one care about anyone else? Would there not be organizations built to help those in need? What about those of us happily helping without religion? We're not doing it so we'll be rewarded in some afterlife. We're doing it because it's the right thing to do in the here and now... and helping others feels pretty good, too.
This is simply not a strong argument for the value of religion. Though, IMO, no argument is strong enough.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Mr.Jingles wrote: [/QUOTENAME] ...and that's the aspect of religion that you don't see in the news.
[/QUOTE]
But it is not exclusive to religion. If religion did not exist, would no one care about anyone else? Would there not be organizations built to help those in need? What about those of us happily helping without religion? We're not doing it so we'll be rewarded in some afterlife. We're doing it because it's the right thing to do in the here and now... and helping others feels pretty good, too.
This is simply not a strong argument for the value of religion. Though, IMO, no argument is strong enough. [/QUOTE]
You're saying that religion doesn't bring any value, but if it does indeed encourgauge kindness and why shouldn't that be recognized? There are aspects of all kinds of religions that make people close minded, but not always. Many people have been able to find a lot of values like compassion, tolerance, and peace thanks to religion. Sure, many people become the complete opossite of that, but it's a known fact that a good number of people have become better human beings thanks to religion.
I agree with you that religion is NOT strictly necessary to achieve a human integrity, but at least recognize that sometimes it does help in a way. Just don't make generalizations by saying that religion brings nothing good.
[/QUOTE]
But it is not exclusive to religion. If religion did not exist, would no one care about anyone else? Would there not be organizations built to help those in need? What about those of us happily helping without religion? We're not doing it so we'll be rewarded in some afterlife. We're doing it because it's the right thing to do in the here and now... and helping others feels pretty good, too.
This is simply not a strong argument for the value of religion. Though, IMO, no argument is strong enough. [/QUOTE]
You're saying that religion doesn't bring any value, but if it does indeed encourgauge kindness and why shouldn't that be recognized? There are aspects of all kinds of religions that make people close minded, but not always. Many people have been able to find a lot of values like compassion, tolerance, and peace thanks to religion. Sure, many people become the complete opossite of that, but it's a known fact that a good number of people have become better human beings thanks to religion.
I agree with you that religion is NOT strictly necessary to achieve a human integrity, but at least recognize that sometimes it does help in a way. Just don't make generalizations by saying that religion brings nothing good.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Mr.Jingles wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
I agree with you that religion is NOT strictly necessary to achieve a human integrity, but at least recognize that sometimes it does help in a way. Just don't make generalizations by saying that religion brings nothing good. [/QUOTE]
What I recognize is how an organization - religious or not - can influence the way people think and act. Yes, religious groups have helped people, but I do not believe it is the religion that is helping. If it were, then ALL christians would participate. All jews, all muslims, etc. Who you are inside determines how good you'll be and how far you'll go to show it - whether you're a jew, roman catholic, atheist or something else.
Do you think if you were not a (somewhat) religious man, you would be less just, less caring? Is it your religion that makes you behave as you do on a daily basis? If you are christian, but were raised a jew or an atheist, would you not care about your fellow man? Would you not have been moved by the video of otters holding hands? :-) We're humans and so we share the same basic needs and goals no matter what - if any - religion we follow.
I'm sorry if you feel slighted or insulted by my view, that's not my intention, but I cannot see how religion itself provides anything worth the pain, fear and non-inclusive beliefs - among other things - one must hold in order to follow it.
I agree with you that religion is NOT strictly necessary to achieve a human integrity, but at least recognize that sometimes it does help in a way. Just don't make generalizations by saying that religion brings nothing good. [/QUOTE]
What I recognize is how an organization - religious or not - can influence the way people think and act. Yes, religious groups have helped people, but I do not believe it is the religion that is helping. If it were, then ALL christians would participate. All jews, all muslims, etc. Who you are inside determines how good you'll be and how far you'll go to show it - whether you're a jew, roman catholic, atheist or something else.
Do you think if you were not a (somewhat) religious man, you would be less just, less caring? Is it your religion that makes you behave as you do on a daily basis? If you are christian, but were raised a jew or an atheist, would you not care about your fellow man? Would you not have been moved by the video of otters holding hands? :-) We're humans and so we share the same basic needs and goals no matter what - if any - religion we follow.
I'm sorry if you feel slighted or insulted by my view, that's not my intention, but I cannot see how religion itself provides anything worth the pain, fear and non-inclusive beliefs - among other things - one must hold in order to follow it.
My mother was a church-goer all of her life, and she developed a lot of friendships through that. I rather viewed it thus also as a social club bringing people in a neighborhood together (a large geographic neighborhood.) For decades women could not hold an office in her church or vote on anything. This steamed my mother who was usually placid, and she would point out that a lot of women, especially widows, gave a lot of money to the church, and why shouldn't they have a say? Something happened in her Synod, and many of the members didn't like it, so they didn't go with the group that split off, and they just became their own Synod of one. The women finally got to vote and hold office, but not being part of the larger organization put the pastors' retirements in financial jeopardy, etc.. The women at her church worked SO HARD in my view. They were always having a bake sale, or a craft sale, and every other year they put on this eleborate fundraising tea and even brought their own good dishes in for it, and tableclothes, and centerpieces, and candles, etc. She loved it. Of course her brand of religion believed that only Christians would be saved and go to heaven. I used to ask her, "What about native Americans? What about people who were born before Jesus was around?" She didn't have an answer for that and never questioned it. She believed whatever they told her. My mother had six children and was severely ill through every pregnancy. I was shocked, and I do mean SHOCKED, when she said she believed in abortion, which is a view her church didn't have. SHOCKED!
Every now and then I find myself back in a church going to a niece or nephew's baptism, or weddings, or funerals. There is something comforting about rituals and pageantry. I had a sister who died last June, another sister died this past December, my best friend died suddently in November, my old high school classmate and later roommate died in December, my chiropractor (age 48) died in January, and Uncle Larry (90 years old) just died two weeks ago. (I am starting to think I am bad luck to be around.) Altogether, it is most confusing. Even though I consider myself atheist, their church services were lovely and personal and honored the departed and brought those who loved them together. There is something to be said for fellowship, and there is lots to be said about the church ladies who volunteer their love working in the kitchens serving funeral lunches. I can appreciate, enjoy, and respect those aspects of their churches I like and believe in, and let the rest fall away.
Every now and then I find myself back in a church going to a niece or nephew's baptism, or weddings, or funerals. There is something comforting about rituals and pageantry. I had a sister who died last June, another sister died this past December, my best friend died suddently in November, my old high school classmate and later roommate died in December, my chiropractor (age 48) died in January, and Uncle Larry (90 years old) just died two weeks ago. (I am starting to think I am bad luck to be around.) Altogether, it is most confusing. Even though I consider myself atheist, their church services were lovely and personal and honored the departed and brought those who loved them together. There is something to be said for fellowship, and there is lots to be said about the church ladies who volunteer their love working in the kitchens serving funeral lunches. I can appreciate, enjoy, and respect those aspects of their churches I like and believe in, and let the rest fall away.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Mr.Jingles wrote: [/QUOTENAME] ...and that's the aspect of religion that you don't see in the news.
[/QUOTE]
But it is not exclusive to religion. If religion did not exist, would no one care about anyone else? Would there not be organizations built to help those in need? What about those of us happily helping without religion? We're not doing it so we'll be rewarded in some afterlife. We're doing it because it's the right thing to do in the here and now... and helping others feels pretty good, too.
This is simply not a strong argument for the value of religion. Though, IMO, no argument is strong enough. [/QUOTE]
It's not exclusive to religion, but it does occur because of religion.
If college didn't exist, there would still be intelligent, capable people - however, to say college should be abolished because of this is kind of absurd. Religion, much like college, is capable of bringing about a lot of good and a lot of bad in a person. What somebody gets out of either depends ENTIRELY upon the person.
And saying that the religious only perform good deeds due to a "reward in the afterlife" is certainly not true. It's seems almost offensive, actually (not to me, as I am completely non-religious myself).
Also, what we don't realize sometimes, is that religion is actually necessary for a great many people, who would likely not perform psychologically well without it. I'm sure there's a good evolutionary reason why religion is so prevalent and natural in humans.
Like Jingles said, and I'll agree - religion is victimized in the media. The media is, in fact, often presenting the truth - however, that truth is not representative of the vast majority of religion, and those who partake in it.
Craziness, absurdity, ignorance, and the like, which is often attributed to religion, can be attributed to the human race as a whole. Of this I am certain. The frequency of these characteristics is no higher in the religious populations than it is in the non-religious populations.
[/QUOTE]
But it is not exclusive to religion. If religion did not exist, would no one care about anyone else? Would there not be organizations built to help those in need? What about those of us happily helping without religion? We're not doing it so we'll be rewarded in some afterlife. We're doing it because it's the right thing to do in the here and now... and helping others feels pretty good, too.
This is simply not a strong argument for the value of religion. Though, IMO, no argument is strong enough. [/QUOTE]
It's not exclusive to religion, but it does occur because of religion.
If college didn't exist, there would still be intelligent, capable people - however, to say college should be abolished because of this is kind of absurd. Religion, much like college, is capable of bringing about a lot of good and a lot of bad in a person. What somebody gets out of either depends ENTIRELY upon the person.
And saying that the religious only perform good deeds due to a "reward in the afterlife" is certainly not true. It's seems almost offensive, actually (not to me, as I am completely non-religious myself).
Also, what we don't realize sometimes, is that religion is actually necessary for a great many people, who would likely not perform psychologically well without it. I'm sure there's a good evolutionary reason why religion is so prevalent and natural in humans.
Like Jingles said, and I'll agree - religion is victimized in the media. The media is, in fact, often presenting the truth - however, that truth is not representative of the vast majority of religion, and those who partake in it.
Craziness, absurdity, ignorance, and the like, which is often attributed to religion, can be attributed to the human race as a whole. Of this I am certain. The frequency of these characteristics is no higher in the religious populations than it is in the non-religious populations.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME] Like Jingles said, and I'll agree - religion is victimized in the media. [/QUOTE]
You had my interest until the above sentence and then it was lost for me. "- religion is victimized..." That actually made me laugh aloud. It's been my personal experience that religion is not victimized but rather it victimizes. Maybe people function better with it, as you said, the same as a battered woman at first 'functions' better with her abusive husband. Followers are told what to do, how to behave, who to accept and who to condemn. Take away their leader, their rules, and they have to start thinking for themselves and justify their behaviors as stemming from their personal choices, not their religion. It's a crutch, an excuse, and the more I think about how it affected my life the more grateful I am to have shaken it off. And as for your religion/college analogy, forgive me, but that is an absurd - to use your word - comparison. College = knowledge. Religion = superstition.
You had my interest until the above sentence and then it was lost for me. "- religion is victimized..." That actually made me laugh aloud. It's been my personal experience that religion is not victimized but rather it victimizes. Maybe people function better with it, as you said, the same as a battered woman at first 'functions' better with her abusive husband. Followers are told what to do, how to behave, who to accept and who to condemn. Take away their leader, their rules, and they have to start thinking for themselves and justify their behaviors as stemming from their personal choices, not their religion. It's a crutch, an excuse, and the more I think about how it affected my life the more grateful I am to have shaken it off. And as for your religion/college analogy, forgive me, but that is an absurd - to use your word - comparison. College = knowledge. Religion = superstition.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]carboengine wrote: [/QUOTENAME] There is something comforting about rituals and pageantry.
...Even though I consider myself atheist, their church services were lovely and personal and honored the departed and brought those who loved them together. There is something to be said for fellowship, and there is lots to be said about the church ladies who volunteer their love working in the kitchens serving funeral lunches. I can appreciate, enjoy, and respect those aspects of their churches I like and believe in, and let the rest fall away. [/QUOTE]
I understand what you're saying and I've been known to feel the same way, too. But I have to say what you're referring to seems more like belonging, about being part of a community, about sharing common feelings and moods... "Rituals and pageantry."
What you're not saying, unless I'm misunderstanding, is that the actual prayers - the meaning behind them, is what gave you comfort. You're not saying that being in the church reminded you that god is watching out for you or... ???
And that's my point. Everyone has said the same basic thing regarding the value of religion. It's the gathering of people that comforts, it's having a place to go, it's being encouraged to do a kindness. But no one has touted the value of the RELIGION, the BELIEF, and that is what I've been trying to get to. THAT is where I say religion has no value.
...Even though I consider myself atheist, their church services were lovely and personal and honored the departed and brought those who loved them together. There is something to be said for fellowship, and there is lots to be said about the church ladies who volunteer their love working in the kitchens serving funeral lunches. I can appreciate, enjoy, and respect those aspects of their churches I like and believe in, and let the rest fall away. [/QUOTE]
I understand what you're saying and I've been known to feel the same way, too. But I have to say what you're referring to seems more like belonging, about being part of a community, about sharing common feelings and moods... "Rituals and pageantry."
What you're not saying, unless I'm misunderstanding, is that the actual prayers - the meaning behind them, is what gave you comfort. You're not saying that being in the church reminded you that god is watching out for you or... ???
And that's my point. Everyone has said the same basic thing regarding the value of religion. It's the gathering of people that comforts, it's having a place to go, it's being encouraged to do a kindness. But no one has touted the value of the RELIGION, the BELIEF, and that is what I've been trying to get to. THAT is where I say religion has no value.