[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME] Like Jingles said, and I'll agree - religion is victimized in the media.[/QUOTE]
I have to disagree with this one, too. If anything, the media is doing all it can to protect Christianity. Whenever there's an Islamic terrorist, his religion must be mentioned. But what happened in '95 in Oklahoma City? A random act of terror rooted from McVeigh's hatred of the government? No... he was a member of a Christian doomsday cult. It was not in the interest of the American public to know that their precious belief system contributed to things like this bombing, so this information has since been almost completely stifled.
Judaism gets all the positive press they need. Regardless of what acts of terrorism Isreal causes (oops, I mean "retaliation"), the US media is inherently on their side. Top example, when they spent weeks completely flattening a couple cities in Lebanon last year. You didn't see many churches campaigning to "help a Lebanese kid", did you?
Islam still doesn't have the greatest name in the US mainstream, but it's slowly getting better in Canada. There's a TV show on CBC called "Little Mosque On The Prairie". It certainly is contributing to cultural tolerance of Islam. But in the US, the Bush administration and the media are doing plenty enough to keep people ignorant about the many positives of Islam, as such ignorance will keep people supporting the almighty "war on terror", which has cost over a trillion dollars now. I digress. I'll agree with you and say that the media isn't doing too much to help Islam, but Judaism and Christianity have all the support they need.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME]College = knowledge. Religion = superstition.[/QUOTE]
What if someone enrolls at a religious college? :)
And for the record... I agree with every word you've said in this topic.
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[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME] [QUOTE][QUOTENAME]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
College = knowledge. Religion = superstition. [/QUOTE]
What if someone enrolls at a religious college? :)
[/QUOTE]
They gain knowledge of superstition? :)
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
And for the record... I agree with every word you've said in this topic.
[/QUOTE]
Well, thank you kindly, Sir.
College = knowledge. Religion = superstition. [/QUOTE]
What if someone enrolls at a religious college? :)
[/QUOTE]
They gain knowledge of superstition? :)
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
And for the record... I agree with every word you've said in this topic.
[/QUOTE]
Well, thank you kindly, Sir.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME] Like Jingles said, and I'll agree - religion is victimized in the media. [/QUOTE]
You had my interest until the above sentence and then it was lost for me. "- religion is victimized..." That actually made me laugh aloud. It's been my personal experience that religion is not victimized but rather it victimizes. Maybe people function better with it, as you said, the same as a battered woman at first 'functions' better with her abusive husband. Followers are told what to do, how to behave, who to accept and who to condemn. Take away their leader, their rules, and they have to start thinking for themselves and justify their behaviors as stemming from their personal choices, not their religion. It's a crutch, an excuse, and the more I think about how it affected my life the more grateful I am to have shaken it off. And as for your religion/college analogy, forgive me, but that is an absurd - to use your word - comparison. College = knowledge. Religion = superstition.
[/QUOTE]
I understand you must be embittered against your own personal religion, but some of the comparisons you make are quite extreme. Once again, comparing religion to an abusive relationship is offensive not only to the religious, but to those who have actually suffered through abusive relationships.
Generally, followers of a religion are never told what to do, how to behave, who to accept and who to condemn. The vast majority of religious institutions don't even touch upon anything controversial. Now, obviously, some do, but there's no use blame the many for the deeds of a few. If anything, religion often merely promotes peace, love, kindness, and charity, and it usually doesn't denounce anything. You may very well have an example where religion does the exact opposite of what I have stated, but for each of those, there are certainly dozens that are parallel to my description.
Religion usually doesn't have a "leader" or "rules." Religion has people such as priests and rabbis, who facilitate meetings and such, but surely nobody depends on them for guidance - but they are there to offer it (much like a financial advisor - you don't necessarily depend on one to make every financial decision for you). In many cases, those who are not even members of the religion are welcome in the community. So much for steadfast rules.
Finally, I believe you misunderstood my analogy. I wasn't referring to the material that a college teaches, but rather the usefulness of it vs. religion. I mean, one could get a philosophy degree, and that would be equally as impractical as religion. However, a person could benefit (or disbenefit) from the experience of either.
I think you're being horribly one-sided, and it's rather dangerous to be so closed-minded about certian issues as this. When one person starts deciding what's best for another person, it leads only to ignorance.
Eliminating religion would eliminate 0% of the ignorance in the world. Ignorant people will still be ignorant, and critical thinkers will still think critically.
You had my interest until the above sentence and then it was lost for me. "- religion is victimized..." That actually made me laugh aloud. It's been my personal experience that religion is not victimized but rather it victimizes. Maybe people function better with it, as you said, the same as a battered woman at first 'functions' better with her abusive husband. Followers are told what to do, how to behave, who to accept and who to condemn. Take away their leader, their rules, and they have to start thinking for themselves and justify their behaviors as stemming from their personal choices, not their religion. It's a crutch, an excuse, and the more I think about how it affected my life the more grateful I am to have shaken it off. And as for your religion/college analogy, forgive me, but that is an absurd - to use your word - comparison. College = knowledge. Religion = superstition.
[/QUOTE]
I understand you must be embittered against your own personal religion, but some of the comparisons you make are quite extreme. Once again, comparing religion to an abusive relationship is offensive not only to the religious, but to those who have actually suffered through abusive relationships.
Generally, followers of a religion are never told what to do, how to behave, who to accept and who to condemn. The vast majority of religious institutions don't even touch upon anything controversial. Now, obviously, some do, but there's no use blame the many for the deeds of a few. If anything, religion often merely promotes peace, love, kindness, and charity, and it usually doesn't denounce anything. You may very well have an example where religion does the exact opposite of what I have stated, but for each of those, there are certainly dozens that are parallel to my description.
Religion usually doesn't have a "leader" or "rules." Religion has people such as priests and rabbis, who facilitate meetings and such, but surely nobody depends on them for guidance - but they are there to offer it (much like a financial advisor - you don't necessarily depend on one to make every financial decision for you). In many cases, those who are not even members of the religion are welcome in the community. So much for steadfast rules.
Finally, I believe you misunderstood my analogy. I wasn't referring to the material that a college teaches, but rather the usefulness of it vs. religion. I mean, one could get a philosophy degree, and that would be equally as impractical as religion. However, a person could benefit (or disbenefit) from the experience of either.
I think you're being horribly one-sided, and it's rather dangerous to be so closed-minded about certian issues as this. When one person starts deciding what's best for another person, it leads only to ignorance.
Eliminating religion would eliminate 0% of the ignorance in the world. Ignorant people will still be ignorant, and critical thinkers will still think critically.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Eliminating religion would eliminate 0% of the ignorance in the world. Ignorant people will still be ignorant, and critical thinkers will still think critically.[/QUOTE]
I disagree. Religion is the top of the list of things that keep people ignorant, because it is the only thing in the world can offer "concrete" answers to the ultimate questions, and threaten damnation for questioning its accuracy.
I disagree. Religion is the top of the list of things that keep people ignorant, because it is the only thing in the world can offer "concrete" answers to the ultimate questions, and threaten damnation for questioning its accuracy.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
I understand you must be embittered against your own personal religion, but some of the comparisons you make are quite extreme. Once again, comparing religion to an abusive relationship is offensive not only to the religious, but to those who have actually suffered through abusive relationships.
Generally, followers of a religion are never told what to do, how to behave, who to accept and who to condemn. The vast majority of religious institutions don't even touch upon anything controversial. Now, obviously, some do, but there's no use blame the many for the deeds of a few. If anything, religion often merely promotes peace, love, kindness, and charity, and it usually doesn't denounce anything. You may very well have an example where religion does the exact opposite of what I have stated, but for each of those, there are certainly dozens that are parallel to my description.
Religion usually doesn't have a "leader" or "rules." Religion has people such as priests and rabbis, who facilitate meetings and such, but surely nobody depends on them for guidance - but they are there to offer it (much like a financial advisor - you don't necessarily depend on one to make every financial decision for you). In many cases, those who are not even members of the religion are welcome in the community. So much for steadfast rules.
Finally, I believe you misunderstood my analogy. I wasn't referring to the material that a college teaches, but rather the usefulness of it vs. religion. I mean, one could get a philosophy degree, and that would be equally as impractical as religion. However, a person could benefit (or disbenefit) from the experience of either.
I think you're being horribly one-sided, and it's rather dangerous to be so closed-minded about certian issues as this. When one person starts deciding what's best for another person, it leads only to ignorance.
Eliminating religion would eliminate 0% of the ignorance in the world. Ignorant people will still be ignorant, and critical thinkers will still think critically. [/QUOTE]
Okay, let's clarify a few things - I've never said anywhere that religion should be eliminated or that eliminating it would rid the world of ignorance. What I said - repeatedly - was that in my opinion religious belief does not provide anything of value. So far, that has not been contradicted.
As for being one-sided, a person's personal opinion usually is. That's what a discussion or debate is about. Bringing opposing sides together. I've asked for input from others about what religious belief adds to life and have received replies that refer to the institution of religion, NOT religion itself.
About religion not having rules or a leader... I'm not sure what religion you're thinking of, but all the religions I'm aware of have rules, and the leader is 'god', and what 'he' will do to you come judgment day weighs heavily on the religious mind.
And finally - you have hit a hot button for me.
#1 - If the religious see my comparison of religion to an abusive relationship as offensive, then let them show me how it differs.
#2 - Unless you have been involved in an abusive relationship, do not speak to me about what a survivor of that would think of my comparison. I am a survivor and I know how it compares. I also know how religion amplified my plight. "Till death do us part" seemed to mean MY death, and damn if my religious family didn't think the vows I made in front of their god weren't more important than my life. It took nearly 10 years of beatings, terror and broken spirit before I somehow clawed my way out of that situation. Alone. Good god-fearing Italian/Catholics did NOT seek a divorce. No matter what.
My comparison is in no way offensive to an abuse survivor. It is a show of understanding to them and of warning to the next in line. And if an abuse survivor should s
I understand you must be embittered against your own personal religion, but some of the comparisons you make are quite extreme. Once again, comparing religion to an abusive relationship is offensive not only to the religious, but to those who have actually suffered through abusive relationships.
Generally, followers of a religion are never told what to do, how to behave, who to accept and who to condemn. The vast majority of religious institutions don't even touch upon anything controversial. Now, obviously, some do, but there's no use blame the many for the deeds of a few. If anything, religion often merely promotes peace, love, kindness, and charity, and it usually doesn't denounce anything. You may very well have an example where religion does the exact opposite of what I have stated, but for each of those, there are certainly dozens that are parallel to my description.
Religion usually doesn't have a "leader" or "rules." Religion has people such as priests and rabbis, who facilitate meetings and such, but surely nobody depends on them for guidance - but they are there to offer it (much like a financial advisor - you don't necessarily depend on one to make every financial decision for you). In many cases, those who are not even members of the religion are welcome in the community. So much for steadfast rules.
Finally, I believe you misunderstood my analogy. I wasn't referring to the material that a college teaches, but rather the usefulness of it vs. religion. I mean, one could get a philosophy degree, and that would be equally as impractical as religion. However, a person could benefit (or disbenefit) from the experience of either.
I think you're being horribly one-sided, and it's rather dangerous to be so closed-minded about certian issues as this. When one person starts deciding what's best for another person, it leads only to ignorance.
Eliminating religion would eliminate 0% of the ignorance in the world. Ignorant people will still be ignorant, and critical thinkers will still think critically. [/QUOTE]
Okay, let's clarify a few things - I've never said anywhere that religion should be eliminated or that eliminating it would rid the world of ignorance. What I said - repeatedly - was that in my opinion religious belief does not provide anything of value. So far, that has not been contradicted.
As for being one-sided, a person's personal opinion usually is. That's what a discussion or debate is about. Bringing opposing sides together. I've asked for input from others about what religious belief adds to life and have received replies that refer to the institution of religion, NOT religion itself.
About religion not having rules or a leader... I'm not sure what religion you're thinking of, but all the religions I'm aware of have rules, and the leader is 'god', and what 'he' will do to you come judgment day weighs heavily on the religious mind.
And finally - you have hit a hot button for me.
#1 - If the religious see my comparison of religion to an abusive relationship as offensive, then let them show me how it differs.
#2 - Unless you have been involved in an abusive relationship, do not speak to me about what a survivor of that would think of my comparison. I am a survivor and I know how it compares. I also know how religion amplified my plight. "Till death do us part" seemed to mean MY death, and damn if my religious family didn't think the vows I made in front of their god weren't more important than my life. It took nearly 10 years of beatings, terror and broken spirit before I somehow clawed my way out of that situation. Alone. Good god-fearing Italian/Catholics did NOT seek a divorce. No matter what.
My comparison is in no way offensive to an abuse survivor. It is a show of understanding to them and of warning to the next in line. And if an abuse survivor should s
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Eliminating religion would eliminate 0% of the ignorance in the world. Ignorant people will still be ignorant, and critical thinkers will still think critically.[/QUOTE]
I disagree. Religion is the top of the list of things that keep people ignorant, because it is the only thing in the world can offer "concrete" answers to the ultimate questions, and threaten damnation for questioning its accuracy.
[/QUOTE]
I think the best way to eliminate ignorance is through economic development and education. I also think that we will become an increasingly secular society the more this occurs. However, it seems most logical to me that the absence of religion will be the result of society becoming more objective and educated, rather than the cause of it.
Edit: I think it's really interesting how you and I can agree point by point on just about everything except religion. As an extremely secular person myself, I think perhaps it is I who is the black sheep in this field.
I disagree. Religion is the top of the list of things that keep people ignorant, because it is the only thing in the world can offer "concrete" answers to the ultimate questions, and threaten damnation for questioning its accuracy.
[/QUOTE]
I think the best way to eliminate ignorance is through economic development and education. I also think that we will become an increasingly secular society the more this occurs. However, it seems most logical to me that the absence of religion will be the result of society becoming more objective and educated, rather than the cause of it.
Edit: I think it's really interesting how you and I can agree point by point on just about everything except religion. As an extremely secular person myself, I think perhaps it is I who is the black sheep in this field.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
I understand you must be embittered against your own personal religion, but some of the comparisons you make are quite extreme. Once again, comparing religion to an abusive relationship is offensive not only to the religious, but to those who have actually suffered through abusive relationships.
Generally, followers of a religion are never told what to do, how to behave, who to accept and who to condemn. The vast majority of religious institutions don't even touch upon anything controversial. Now, obviously, some do, but there's no use blame the many for the deeds of a few. If anything, religion often merely promotes peace, love, kindness, and charity, and it usually doesn't denounce anything. You may very well have an example where religion does the exact opposite of what I have stated, but for each of those, there are certainly dozens that are parallel to my description.
Religion usually doesn't have a "leader" or "rules." Religion has people such as priests and rabbis, who facilitate meetings and such, but surely nobody depends on them for guidance - but they are there to offer it (much like a financial advisor - you don't necessarily depend on one to make every financial decision for you). In many cases, those who are not even members of the religion are welcome in the community. So much for steadfast rules.
Finally, I believe you misunderstood my analogy. I wasn't referring to the material that a college teaches, but rather the usefulness of it vs. religion. I mean, one could get a philosophy degree, and that would be equally as impractical as religion. However, a person could benefit (or disbenefit) from the experience of either.
I think you're being horribly one-sided, and it's rather dangerous to be so closed-minded about certian issues as this. When one person starts deciding what's best for another person, it leads only to ignorance.
Eliminating religion would eliminate 0% of the ignorance in the world. Ignorant people will still be ignorant, and critical thinkers will still think critically. [/QUOTE]
Okay, let's clarify a few things - I've never said anywhere that religion should be eliminated or that eliminating it would rid the world of ignorance. What I said - repeatedly - was that in my opinion religious belief does not provide anything of value. So far, that has not been contradicted.
As for being one-sided, a person's personal opinion usually is. That's what a discussion or debate is about. Bringing opposing sides together. I've asked for input from others about what religious belief adds to life and have received replies that refer to the institution of religion, NOT religion itself.
About religion not having rules or a leader... I'm not sure what religion you're thinking of, but all the religions I'm aware of have rules, and the leader is 'god', and what 'he' will do to you come judgment day weighs heavily on the religious mind.
And finally - you have hit a hot button for me.
#1 - If the religious see my comparison of religion to an abusive relationship as offensive, then let them show me how it differs.
#2 - Unless you have been involved in an abusive relationship, do not speak to me about what a survivor of that would think of my comparison. I am a survivor and I know how it compares. I also know how religion amplified my plight. "Till death do us part" seemed to mean MY death, and damn if my religious family didn't think the vows I made in front of their god weren't more important than my life. It took nearly 10 years of beatings, terror and broken spirit before I somehow clawed my way out of that situation. Alone. Good god-fearing Italian/Catholics did NOT seek a divorce. No matter what.
My comparison is in no way offensive to an abuse survivor. It is a show of understanding to them and of war
I understand you must be embittered against your own personal religion, but some of the comparisons you make are quite extreme. Once again, comparing religion to an abusive relationship is offensive not only to the religious, but to those who have actually suffered through abusive relationships.
Generally, followers of a religion are never told what to do, how to behave, who to accept and who to condemn. The vast majority of religious institutions don't even touch upon anything controversial. Now, obviously, some do, but there's no use blame the many for the deeds of a few. If anything, religion often merely promotes peace, love, kindness, and charity, and it usually doesn't denounce anything. You may very well have an example where religion does the exact opposite of what I have stated, but for each of those, there are certainly dozens that are parallel to my description.
Religion usually doesn't have a "leader" or "rules." Religion has people such as priests and rabbis, who facilitate meetings and such, but surely nobody depends on them for guidance - but they are there to offer it (much like a financial advisor - you don't necessarily depend on one to make every financial decision for you). In many cases, those who are not even members of the religion are welcome in the community. So much for steadfast rules.
Finally, I believe you misunderstood my analogy. I wasn't referring to the material that a college teaches, but rather the usefulness of it vs. religion. I mean, one could get a philosophy degree, and that would be equally as impractical as religion. However, a person could benefit (or disbenefit) from the experience of either.
I think you're being horribly one-sided, and it's rather dangerous to be so closed-minded about certian issues as this. When one person starts deciding what's best for another person, it leads only to ignorance.
Eliminating religion would eliminate 0% of the ignorance in the world. Ignorant people will still be ignorant, and critical thinkers will still think critically. [/QUOTE]
Okay, let's clarify a few things - I've never said anywhere that religion should be eliminated or that eliminating it would rid the world of ignorance. What I said - repeatedly - was that in my opinion religious belief does not provide anything of value. So far, that has not been contradicted.
As for being one-sided, a person's personal opinion usually is. That's what a discussion or debate is about. Bringing opposing sides together. I've asked for input from others about what religious belief adds to life and have received replies that refer to the institution of religion, NOT religion itself.
About religion not having rules or a leader... I'm not sure what religion you're thinking of, but all the religions I'm aware of have rules, and the leader is 'god', and what 'he' will do to you come judgment day weighs heavily on the religious mind.
And finally - you have hit a hot button for me.
#1 - If the religious see my comparison of religion to an abusive relationship as offensive, then let them show me how it differs.
#2 - Unless you have been involved in an abusive relationship, do not speak to me about what a survivor of that would think of my comparison. I am a survivor and I know how it compares. I also know how religion amplified my plight. "Till death do us part" seemed to mean MY death, and damn if my religious family didn't think the vows I made in front of their god weren't more important than my life. It took nearly 10 years of beatings, terror and broken spirit before I somehow clawed my way out of that situation. Alone. Good god-fearing Italian/Catholics did NOT seek a divorce. No matter what.
My comparison is in no way offensive to an abuse survivor. It is a show of understanding to them and of war
I think however that when you've lost a child, as I have, you tend to want to believe something(where is my son now, etc.). I don't know...:/
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME] Like Jingles said, and I'll agree - religion is victimized in the media.[/QUOTE]
I have to disagree with this one, too. If anything, the media is doing all it can to protect Christianity.
[/QUOTE]
Depends on what part of the media you're refering to...
If we're talking about the 700 Club and FOX News, we know that they're most likely to hide anything that will tarnish the reputation of Christianity and Judaism, and instead put Islam on a bad spotlight.
Other sections of the media seem a lot more fair on the way they present the news, but yet they're only showing us what's controversial and hardly ever we see report on people who a make a difference for the good.
I have to disagree with this one, too. If anything, the media is doing all it can to protect Christianity.
[/QUOTE]
Depends on what part of the media you're refering to...
If we're talking about the 700 Club and FOX News, we know that they're most likely to hide anything that will tarnish the reputation of Christianity and Judaism, and instead put Islam on a bad spotlight.
Other sections of the media seem a lot more fair on the way they present the news, but yet they're only showing us what's controversial and hardly ever we see report on people who a make a difference for the good.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Eliminating religion would eliminate 0% of the ignorance in the world. Ignorant people will still be ignorant, and critical thinkers will still think critically.[/QUOTE]
I disagree. Religion is the top of the list of things that keep people ignorant, because it is the only thing in the world can offer "concrete" answers to the ultimate questions, and threaten damnation for questioning its accuracy.
[/QUOTE]
It also depends on the way how religion is taught.
If religion is based on a fundamentalist basis where we're being told that "We are right, and everybody else is wrong". Then it's an outlet for plenty of ignorance. However, many religions preach a theological dogma that doesn't condemn others people's beliefs, and in some cases encourages peace despite the differences.
I disagree. Religion is the top of the list of things that keep people ignorant, because it is the only thing in the world can offer "concrete" answers to the ultimate questions, and threaten damnation for questioning its accuracy.
[/QUOTE]
It also depends on the way how religion is taught.
If religion is based on a fundamentalist basis where we're being told that "We are right, and everybody else is wrong". Then it's an outlet for plenty of ignorance. However, many religions preach a theological dogma that doesn't condemn others people's beliefs, and in some cases encourages peace despite the differences.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Mr.Jingles wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Eliminating religion would eliminate 0% of the ignorance in the world. Ignorant people will still be ignorant, and critical thinkers will still think critically.[/QUOTE]
I disagree. Religion is the top of the list of things that keep people ignorant, because it is the only thing in the world can offer "concrete" answers to the ultimate questions, and threaten damnation for questioning its accuracy.
[/QUOTE]
It also depends on the way how religion is taught.
If religion is based on a fundamentalist basis where we're being told that "We are right, and everybody else is wrong". Then it's an outlet for plenty of ignorance. However, many religions preach a theological dogma that doesn't condemn others people's beliefs, and in some cases encourages peace despite the differences.[/QUOTE]
Judaïsm is completely exclusive (i.e. "we are right, everyone else is wrong"), though not missionary and will thus leave others be...unless they hinder what is seen as 'a divine right' (such as the Palestinians dwelling in Palestine, which they (in this case: Zionist Jews, thankfully a minority) believe is theirs by divine mandate.
Christianity and Islam are both exclusive AND missionary religions, and thus inherently intollerant of other religions.
That covers the large majority of religion in this world already.
I disagree. Religion is the top of the list of things that keep people ignorant, because it is the only thing in the world can offer "concrete" answers to the ultimate questions, and threaten damnation for questioning its accuracy.
[/QUOTE]
It also depends on the way how religion is taught.
If religion is based on a fundamentalist basis where we're being told that "We are right, and everybody else is wrong". Then it's an outlet for plenty of ignorance. However, many religions preach a theological dogma that doesn't condemn others people's beliefs, and in some cases encourages peace despite the differences.[/QUOTE]
Judaïsm is completely exclusive (i.e. "we are right, everyone else is wrong"), though not missionary and will thus leave others be...unless they hinder what is seen as 'a divine right' (such as the Palestinians dwelling in Palestine, which they (in this case: Zionist Jews, thankfully a minority) believe is theirs by divine mandate.
Christianity and Islam are both exclusive AND missionary religions, and thus inherently intollerant of other religions.
That covers the large majority of religion in this world already.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color = "crimson"> ThomasQuinn wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Mr.Jingles wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Eliminating religion would eliminate 0% of the ignorance in the world. Ignorant people will still be ignorant, and critical thinkers will still think critically.[/QUOTE]
I disagree. Religion is the top of the list of things that keep people ignorant, because it is the only thing in the world can offer "concrete" answers to the ultimate questions, and threaten damnation for questioning its accuracy.
[/QUOTE]
It also depends on the way how religion is taught.
If religion is based on a fundamentalist basis where we're being told that "We are right, and everybody else is wrong". Then it's an outlet for plenty of ignorance. However, many religions preach a theological dogma that doesn't condemn others people's beliefs, and in some cases encourages peace despite the differences.[/QUOTE]
Judaïsm is completely exclusive (i.e. "we are right, everyone else is wrong"), though not missionary and will thus leave others be...unless they hinder what is seen as 'a divine right' (such as the Palestinians dwelling in Palestine, which they (in this case: Zionist Jews, thankfully a minority) believe is theirs by divine mandate.
Christianity and Islam are both exclusive AND missionary religions, and thus inherently intollerant of other religions.
That covers the large majority of religion in this world already. [/QUOTE]
Gotta call you out on this one Caspar. Islam is not a missionary religion. In fact, in the Koran there is a verse that says, and I quote: "For those who do not have faith (in the Koran) God has closed their hearts, and no amount of justification will open them again".
Muslims will be happy to tell you about their religion and will offer assistance if you are interested in learning about it, but they will NOT openly recruit for it.
I believe you are confusing the Islamic Extremists with Muslims in general, which is false. It's like saying that all Dutch are bankers. Islamic Extremists recruit and openly push their religion on others, but not Muslims in general, in fact, like many other things, pushing conversion onto others is forbidden by the Koran. Even Christians and Jews are allowed to keep their religion in Muslim controled areas, as long as they pay the head tax. That's the way the Koran says it should be done...you have to seperate out the religion from the politics of the region.
**Edit**
Here's the quote, in full, from the Koran in it's original context:
In the name of God, the Mercy-giving, the Merciful!
This is the Book which contains no doubt; it means guidance for those who do their duty who believe in the unseen, keep up prayer, and spend something from whatever We have provided them with; who believe in what has been sent down to you as well as what was sent down before you, while they are convinced about the Hereafter; such people hold on to guidance from their Lord; those will be successful.
It is all the same whether you warn those who disbelieve or do not warn them; they still will not believe: God has sealed off their hearts and their hearing, while over their sight there hangs a covering; they will have severe torment.
I disagree. Religion is the top of the list of things that keep people ignorant, because it is the only thing in the world can offer "concrete" answers to the ultimate questions, and threaten damnation for questioning its accuracy.
[/QUOTE]
It also depends on the way how religion is taught.
If religion is based on a fundamentalist basis where we're being told that "We are right, and everybody else is wrong". Then it's an outlet for plenty of ignorance. However, many religions preach a theological dogma that doesn't condemn others people's beliefs, and in some cases encourages peace despite the differences.[/QUOTE]
Judaïsm is completely exclusive (i.e. "we are right, everyone else is wrong"), though not missionary and will thus leave others be...unless they hinder what is seen as 'a divine right' (such as the Palestinians dwelling in Palestine, which they (in this case: Zionist Jews, thankfully a minority) believe is theirs by divine mandate.
Christianity and Islam are both exclusive AND missionary religions, and thus inherently intollerant of other religions.
That covers the large majority of religion in this world already. [/QUOTE]
Gotta call you out on this one Caspar. Islam is not a missionary religion. In fact, in the Koran there is a verse that says, and I quote: "For those who do not have faith (in the Koran) God has closed their hearts, and no amount of justification will open them again".
Muslims will be happy to tell you about their religion and will offer assistance if you are interested in learning about it, but they will NOT openly recruit for it.
I believe you are confusing the Islamic Extremists with Muslims in general, which is false. It's like saying that all Dutch are bankers. Islamic Extremists recruit and openly push their religion on others, but not Muslims in general, in fact, like many other things, pushing conversion onto others is forbidden by the Koran. Even Christians and Jews are allowed to keep their religion in Muslim controled areas, as long as they pay the head tax. That's the way the Koran says it should be done...you have to seperate out the religion from the politics of the region.
**Edit**
Here's the quote, in full, from the Koran in it's original context:
In the name of God, the Mercy-giving, the Merciful!
This is the Book which contains no doubt; it means guidance for those who do their duty who believe in the unseen, keep up prayer, and spend something from whatever We have provided them with; who believe in what has been sent down to you as well as what was sent down before you, while they are convinced about the Hereafter; such people hold on to guidance from their Lord; those will be successful.
It is all the same whether you warn those who disbelieve or do not warn them; they still will not believe: God has sealed off their hearts and their hearing, while over their sight there hangs a covering; they will have severe torment.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME]I think the best way to eliminate ignorance is through economic development and education. I also think that we will become an increasingly secular society the more this occurs. However, it seems most logical to me that the absence of religion will be the result of society becoming more objective and educated, rather than the cause of it.[/QUOTE]
This will take time, but I agree. Your words have been true, at least to some extent, since the enlightenment... the progress has just been very slow!
[QUOTE]I think it's really interesting how you and I can agree point by point on just about everything except religion. As an extremely secular person myself, I think perhaps it is I who is the black sheep in this field.[/QUOTE]
That just makes it all the more interesting. Whether we agree or not, your thoughts are always thought-provoking. Your last post to magicalfreddiemercury is one of the most beautiful things I've ever read. You are a prime example of someone whose belief system is always up for revision. I really hope you take this attitude into the wider world on a daily basis. It needs it.
This will take time, but I agree. Your words have been true, at least to some extent, since the enlightenment... the progress has just been very slow!
[QUOTE]I think it's really interesting how you and I can agree point by point on just about everything except religion. As an extremely secular person myself, I think perhaps it is I who is the black sheep in this field.[/QUOTE]
That just makes it all the more interesting. Whether we agree or not, your thoughts are always thought-provoking. Your last post to magicalfreddiemercury is one of the most beautiful things I've ever read. You are a prime example of someone whose belief system is always up for revision. I really hope you take this attitude into the wider world on a daily basis. It needs it.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME]I think the best way to eliminate ignorance is through economic development and education. I also think that we will become an increasingly secular society the more this occurs. However, it seems most logical to me that the absence of religion will be the result of society becoming more objective and educated, rather than the cause of it.[/QUOTE]
This will take time, but I agree. Your words have been true, at least to some extent, since the enlightenment... the progress has just been very slow!
[QUOTE]I think it's really interesting how you and I can agree point by point on just about everything except religion. As an extremely secular person myself, I think perhaps it is I who is the black sheep in this field.[/QUOTE]
That just makes it all the more interesting. Whether we agree or not, your thoughts are always thought-provoking. Your last post to magicalfreddiemercury is one of the most beautiful things I've ever read. You are a prime example of someone whose belief system is always up for revision. I really hope you take this attitude into the wider world on a daily basis. It needs it.
[/QUOTE]
Progress is often very slow. We currently live in a society of immediate gratification - if there's a problem, there's a solution. We all wish the world worked like that, but it very rarely does. Even if we satisfy the question, "What should we do?" more elusive still is the answer to "How do we do it?" We feel that if we can't answer these questions that we are in a dire situation. Perhaps this is the very thing that stimulates progress.
The point that you will always hear me reiterate time and time again is that there are never clear solutions to anything, and generally nothing is ever cut and dry - no matter how much it seems to be that way. In the past, I have had my beliefs shaken to the core, and I know how difficult it can be to relinquish them.
Beliefs are like concrete, and information is like water. Once you close yourself off to new information, new ideas, etc., your beliefs solidify, and they become increasingly difficult to break. I like to keep my mind "wet" with a constant flow of new ideas.
This is why I love these discussions, especially in this community. I mean, as opposed to most forums I've seen, we have some really brilliant people here like yourself. I learn so much here, and what I learn stimulates me to learn more.
This will take time, but I agree. Your words have been true, at least to some extent, since the enlightenment... the progress has just been very slow!
[QUOTE]I think it's really interesting how you and I can agree point by point on just about everything except religion. As an extremely secular person myself, I think perhaps it is I who is the black sheep in this field.[/QUOTE]
That just makes it all the more interesting. Whether we agree or not, your thoughts are always thought-provoking. Your last post to magicalfreddiemercury is one of the most beautiful things I've ever read. You are a prime example of someone whose belief system is always up for revision. I really hope you take this attitude into the wider world on a daily basis. It needs it.
[/QUOTE]
Progress is often very slow. We currently live in a society of immediate gratification - if there's a problem, there's a solution. We all wish the world worked like that, but it very rarely does. Even if we satisfy the question, "What should we do?" more elusive still is the answer to "How do we do it?" We feel that if we can't answer these questions that we are in a dire situation. Perhaps this is the very thing that stimulates progress.
The point that you will always hear me reiterate time and time again is that there are never clear solutions to anything, and generally nothing is ever cut and dry - no matter how much it seems to be that way. In the past, I have had my beliefs shaken to the core, and I know how difficult it can be to relinquish them.
Beliefs are like concrete, and information is like water. Once you close yourself off to new information, new ideas, etc., your beliefs solidify, and they become increasingly difficult to break. I like to keep my mind "wet" with a constant flow of new ideas.
This is why I love these discussions, especially in this community. I mean, as opposed to most forums I've seen, we have some really brilliant people here like yourself. I learn so much here, and what I learn stimulates me to learn more.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]CMU HistoryGirl wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color = "crimson"> ThomasQuinn wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Mr.Jingles wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Eliminating religion would eliminate 0% of the ignorance in the world. Ignorant people will still be ignorant, and critical thinkers will still think critically.[/QUOTE]
I disagree. Religion is the top of the list of things that keep people ignorant, because it is the only thing in the world can offer "concrete" answers to the ultimate questions, and threaten damnation for questioning its accuracy.
[/QUOTE]
It also depends on the way how religion is taught.
If religion is based on a fundamentalist basis where we're being told that "We are right, and everybody else is wrong". Then it's an outlet for plenty of ignorance. However, many religions preach a theological dogma that doesn't condemn others people's beliefs, and in some cases encourages peace despite the differences.[/QUOTE]
Judaïsm is completely exclusive (i.e. "we are right, everyone else is wrong"), though not missionary and will thus leave others be...unless they hinder what is seen as 'a divine right' (such as the Palestinians dwelling in Palestine, which they (in this case: Zionist Jews, thankfully a minority) believe is theirs by divine mandate.
Christianity and Islam are both exclusive AND missionary religions, and thus inherently intollerant of other religions.
That covers the large majority of religion in this world already. [/QUOTE]
Gotta call you out on this one Caspar. Islam is not a missionary religion. In fact, in the Koran there is a verse that says, and I quote: "For those who do not have faith (in the Koran) God has closed their hearts, and no amount of justification will open them again".
Muslims will be happy to tell you about their religion and will offer assistance if you are interested in learning about it, but they will NOT openly recruit for it.
I believe you are confusing the Islamic Extremists with Muslims in general, which is false. It's like saying that all Dutch are bankers. Islamic Extremists recruit and openly push their religion on others, but not Muslims in general, in fact, like many other things, pushing conversion onto others is forbidden by the Koran. Even Christians and Jews are allowed to keep their religion in Muslim controled areas, as long as they pay the head tax. That's the way the Koran says it should be done...you have to seperate out the religion from the politics of the region.
**Edit**
Here's the quote, in full, from the Koran in it's original context:
In the name of God, the Mercy-giving, the Merciful!
This is the Book which contains no doubt; it means guidance for those who do their duty who believe in the unseen, keep up prayer, and spend something from whatever We have provided them with; who believe in what has been sent down to you as well as what was sent down before you, while they are convinced about the Hereafter; such people hold on to guidance from their Lord; those will be successful.
It is all the same whether you warn those who disbelieve or do not warn them; they still will not believe: God has sealed off their hearts and their hearing, while over their sight there hangs a covering; they will have severe torment.[/QUOTE]
You are part right (though your reliance on the quote is endearingly naïve; Islam is not a 'sola scriptura' religion):
Yes, upon paying the tax, the 'Peoples of the Script' (Jews and Christians) are allowed to worship (in fact, Teheran has a large Christian and Jewish community, for instance). However, if you would look into, for instance, the early Middle Eastern expeditions to East Africa, you would find that they were extremely mis
I disagree. Religion is the top of the list of things that keep people ignorant, because it is the only thing in the world can offer "concrete" answers to the ultimate questions, and threaten damnation for questioning its accuracy.
[/QUOTE]
It also depends on the way how religion is taught.
If religion is based on a fundamentalist basis where we're being told that "We are right, and everybody else is wrong". Then it's an outlet for plenty of ignorance. However, many religions preach a theological dogma that doesn't condemn others people's beliefs, and in some cases encourages peace despite the differences.[/QUOTE]
Judaïsm is completely exclusive (i.e. "we are right, everyone else is wrong"), though not missionary and will thus leave others be...unless they hinder what is seen as 'a divine right' (such as the Palestinians dwelling in Palestine, which they (in this case: Zionist Jews, thankfully a minority) believe is theirs by divine mandate.
Christianity and Islam are both exclusive AND missionary religions, and thus inherently intollerant of other religions.
That covers the large majority of religion in this world already. [/QUOTE]
Gotta call you out on this one Caspar. Islam is not a missionary religion. In fact, in the Koran there is a verse that says, and I quote: "For those who do not have faith (in the Koran) God has closed their hearts, and no amount of justification will open them again".
Muslims will be happy to tell you about their religion and will offer assistance if you are interested in learning about it, but they will NOT openly recruit for it.
I believe you are confusing the Islamic Extremists with Muslims in general, which is false. It's like saying that all Dutch are bankers. Islamic Extremists recruit and openly push their religion on others, but not Muslims in general, in fact, like many other things, pushing conversion onto others is forbidden by the Koran. Even Christians and Jews are allowed to keep their religion in Muslim controled areas, as long as they pay the head tax. That's the way the Koran says it should be done...you have to seperate out the religion from the politics of the region.
**Edit**
Here's the quote, in full, from the Koran in it's original context:
In the name of God, the Mercy-giving, the Merciful!
This is the Book which contains no doubt; it means guidance for those who do their duty who believe in the unseen, keep up prayer, and spend something from whatever We have provided them with; who believe in what has been sent down to you as well as what was sent down before you, while they are convinced about the Hereafter; such people hold on to guidance from their Lord; those will be successful.
It is all the same whether you warn those who disbelieve or do not warn them; they still will not believe: God has sealed off their hearts and their hearing, while over their sight there hangs a covering; they will have severe torment.[/QUOTE]
You are part right (though your reliance on the quote is endearingly naïve; Islam is not a 'sola scriptura' religion):
Yes, upon paying the tax, the 'Peoples of the Script' (Jews and Christians) are allowed to worship (in fact, Teheran has a large Christian and Jewish community, for instance). However, if you would look into, for instance, the early Middle Eastern expeditions to East Africa, you would find that they were extremely mis