Queen "Elite!".

[QUOTE] [b]The Real Wizard wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE] [b]Togg wrote:[/b]
I do find it interesting here...consider this,
Why are two collectors arguing over who leaked 'their' property...
[/QUOTE]
This discussion is not about the property itself.

Once again - it's people with no experience in the field who are the most opinionated.

Without collectors, there would be no Hyde Park 76, Earls Court 77 and Houston 77 videos. No complete BBC sessions. .[/QUOTE]

This discussion IS about the property itself... just as much as the original argument.

Even having no experience it's pretty easy to guess how you go about collecting your material and beleive it or not, I actually respect that you have strong values.... I just think they are severely misplaced, but based on the same love of Queen that we all share so you are forgiven.

Without collectors leaking these vids you mention we might have had them in MUCH better quality as QPL might see some value in it that you lot have taken away by making them widly available.

"So was spending money before the internet came around a waste of time or did it make sense?"

Doesn't that depend on the discretion of the individual?? Since there's ample evidence of people seeing it both ways, I think you'll find it's a bit of a subjective issue.
Sure, if you really want something, maybe it makes sense to buy it. I was only commenting on a certain variety of rarities with questionable origins (ie. the kind that really shouldn't be on sale) in saying that I, personally, would not be paying for them. It is, as I just said, my personal feeling that I shouldn't be paying someone for something that, at some stage in the past, probably changed hands for free and 'on the hush hush'. That's not an absolute - and JSS mentioned other scenarios where I'd probably think differently!

"Are you actually agreeing with me then that it was easier to buy bootlegs/rare stuff BEFORE the internet made it a doddle to share easier and safer?"

I think you're oversimplifying it. Consider that the internet makes it easier for everyone to find people to trade with, at the same time as making it a trivial matter to 'leak' something and have it available for everyone.

"You've got a good way of totally changing the theme of someone's arguments and questions to something totally that suits you're arguments btw."

What on earth are you even talking about? It's a group discussion. If you don't get varied input, all you have is a room full of people saying the exact same thing. Speaking of changing themes, why are you talking about me?

"Don't think I've read you once actually saying "hey, you could be right and I'm wrong""

Technically speaking, that's because I haven't been flat-out 'wrong' yet! There's a few interesting things I've overlooked or didn't think of - as I've said, JSS made a couple of good points in that regard. I find it an interesting topic and I'd rather carry on disseminating than worry about the right and wrong of things. You'd rather talk about me - that's your problem.

"usually you just try make a joke when the argument is running away from you."

Yeah. What I should really do is rename myself after another user and troll him. It's worked for you in the past, haha! Is that really the tactic of someone with a strong argument? I don't think so.

"(directed at the collectors) Do you own in your collections ANYTHING that was stolen from Brian May's house years ago?"

I think anyone who's heard his version of "His Latest Flame" probably knows the answer to that one. I recall Brian was especially Soapbox Angry about that episode.

Sorry, I didn't mean for any of my replies to seem personal or attack you there Zebonka. They did on reading back so I apologise. I'm enjoying this thread as it's actually pretty civilised and a good read for the first time in a long while, with mnay good counter arguments running through it.

I agree that buying Queen material is silly, but i stillsay that for a young guy (who made his money through graft), that before the advent of the internet it was the only way to get hold of items that were a must get. If I seen anything Queen related I HAD to buy it back then. That goes for bootlegs and rare demos, or hard to get studio songs. This was before amazon and ebay or sharing sites. (although I do remember Richard putting up a wealth of concerts here on QZ that you could stream, but that was before I spent a small fortune).

Sharing the old fashioned way was too time consuming for me and at the time I had no idea where to even start, as I got into the group in 1991! I had no alliances with pals or access to elite groups.

It's easy for you to say that buying Queen items is ridiculous as you can get them for free other ways just like the original thief, roadie, studio engineer, etc etc but how is that even possible... these people were either close to the band or record company or a stone cold thief.

So.... i still ask.... how did we "get fucked"?

We bought something that gave us countless entertainment or satisfaction (back then even a turd that said Queen would probably have been purchased by most of us young fans).

I do agree that the sellers should be a shamed of themselves, but hey that's life.... there was a market for it and they exploited it.

Can i ask, the consensus is that this elite group are greedy and out of touch (by my reading)... what's your thoughts on them? Do you agree with the hoarding, the monoplosing of hard to get Queen material?

To me they are not real fans. A fan would know what this material meant to other fans and release it. Back then they had no way of doing this, but with the internet they have no excuses.

[QUOTE] [b]4 x Vision wrote:[/b]
Can i ask, the consensus is that this elite group are greedy and out of touch (by my reading)... .[/QUOTE]

Just a quick point. That's not my view. At least that's not my complete view. There are many ways to look at those keeping material out of public view, and I include Queen Productions, Brian May etc., as well as collectors. What has me posting on these recent threads is that the collectors are telling one side of the story -- to summarise and simplify a little, they are sharers not hoarders, and that they aren't elitist, secretive, arrogant etc. But that's only one aspect of it. From another p.o.v, they are little different than Queen Productions and the record companies. When anyone points that out the insults start ("parasites, leechers" etc), and when anyone tries to get a straight answer then they start with the misdirections ("why don't you spend 1000s of pounds...", ridiculous analogies and daft metaphors "gold, silver, bronze".) Really, there's a debate to be had about their methods and another issue about freedom of speech on the forum.

One a final note, I was so stunned by John's comments regarding his belief that tapes never get stolen I did a little digging, there are literally hundereds of news feeds relating to stolen recordings ending up on sale to collectors. The most recent was of course hackers breaking into Sony's computers and stealing ALL of Micheal Jackson's back catalogue, including of course the Mercury tapes...
Now below is another of the highly publicised thefts... so please dont try to tell me it never happens...

Beatles' final sessions 'stolen'

The tapes were recorded during sessions for Let It Be
Stolen tapes of The Beatles' last recording sessions were put up for sale for £250,000, a court has been told.
The 504 tapes contain about 80 hours of material, including 200 cover versions, Southwark Crown Court has heard.

Nigel Oliver, 55, from Slough, is on trial on charges of handling stolen goods. He is accused of trying to sell the tapes on behalf of two unknown men.

He has been found unfit to plead. The lost 1969 recordings were recovered in an undercover operation in 2003.

"These tapes have a huge commercial value," said Neil Aspinall, who manages The Beatles' Apple Corps label.


The tapes were stacked up in boxes on the floor of the house
Rachid Bourammani
Dutch investigator
"There's lots of very unknown stuff and music they wouldn't have recorded in a normal session," he told the court.

"For example, they covered over 200 songs on these tapes. Songs of the day, such as Bob Dylan."

The recordings were made for the band's final album, Let It Be.

Undercover operation

Oliver was arrested in January 2003 during an undercover operation set up by the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry (IFPI).

The court heard that he organised the transaction between two men in Amsterdam and two undercover officers in the UK, and was caught while waiting for his payment.

The recordings were found during a search of a house in Lisse, Holland.

"The tapes were stacked up in boxes on the floor of the house," Dutch investigator Rachid Bourammani said. "There were lots and lots of them."

"So.... i still ask.... how did we "get fucked"?"

Perhaps it's a statement I should've elaborated on. If your only consideration in buying a piece of rare music is 'did I enjoy it', and you enjoyed it - then hell no! No one's fucked.
Given that there's other reasons to collect this stuff, I can imagine a situation where someone has spent a lot of money on collectible stuff at a time when it made sense to do so, and now finds themselves in a situation where it doesn't have the worth they thought it might. Or, someone like Fuller comes along and outright leaks it in direct violation of whatever terms he obtained it under. Depending on one's motivations for having a rare item, they might feel a bit fucked over in those circumstances.

"I agree that buying Queen material is silly"

Well - it really depends on your outlook. To me (only really into non-album stuff since 2004) I've always weighed it up as being like this - is the thing I want likely to leak out eventually? I'd rather wait and possibly just go without.
People like Bob like to frown upon that attitude as being somewhat leech-like but for me it's just prioritising. Rarities, while cool and interesting, aren't (to me) worth paying serious money for. Especially not stacked up against the fact that the person I'd be buying them from has nothing to do with Queen.
So throwing down cash on rare items isn't always silly - someone wants that circular piece of rare blue vinyl, then go crazy! - but as far as this discussion goes (which started because of a leaked recording) it pays to evaluate all of the ins and outs before playing King Dick. Sorry if I've failed to do so (at least in writing).

"what's your thoughts on them? Do you agree with the hoarding, the monoplosing of hard to get Queen material?"

Again, it hinges on one's outlook! Is it hoarding? Are they to be believed when they say 'we'll share stuff later'? I've got no reason to doubt them. Cool stuff has come out before, and will come out again by hook or by crook.
I don't have a lot of respect for their attitudes that come to the fore when things go wrong, though. Anyone remember that soundless late 70's MPG that showed up here a few years ago? BOY, that was a great thread!

I can't speak of other fans' feelings of entitlement, but I have none - I can take or leave these rare things and be just as happy. Sincere gratitude for anyone who wakes up one day and says, "I'd like people to hear this", but I won't kiss arse to make it happen (read - any comment on any Dave Fuller upload, ever) and I certainly won't be talked down to for 'not contributing'.
It'd do collectors some good to remember that we all got into this because we like a band, plain and simple. To muddy the waters unnecessarily is just boring. To invent a pecking order where one doesn't exist is silly. The pecking order goes: QPL > All Of Us. We're in the boat together - there is no separation. If you can see your way to sharing nice recordings, then thankyou. Otherwise, keep them to yourself and shut the hell up.

"A fan would know what this material meant to other fans and release it"

Aha! It's like I'm always saying, though - if everyone uploaded absolutely everything they had, then there would be no real problem. Everyone would have everything, everyone could analyse and discuss everything, everything would be (beyond a shadow of a doubt) safely preserved and with minimal risk of being lost forever.
Now please God, no one run in here and tell me why that can't happen. I'm not a kid - I know that people simply don't behave that way, that 'someone' would hold out, or not play fair and upload his share - I know all that. JUST SAYIN' - hypothetically speaking, if fan enjoyment and consumption of music were really the prime consideration here, then the absolute best course of action would be to get as much out, onto as many hard drives as possible.
You guys work out the details in your own time. In the end, you really cannot take this shit with you. We've got people like me and Microwave growing old and silver here, waiting for QPL to get their act together - we don't need collectors doing likewise.

"Sorry, I didn't mean for any of my replies to seem personal or attack you there Zebonka"

It's not a problem, I was just a little baffled by some of the seeming contradictions. All of this stuff is actually a very interesting little episode, at any rate.

More from Brian May no less....



Queen's Brian May has appealed for the return of irreplaceable tapes of the band's original recordings.

The famous guitarist used the pages of Record Collector magazine to launch his appeal.He also hinted that there might be something in it for anyone helping out.
In a letter to the magazine, May said: "We're keen to remix the entire Queen back catalogue of albums in Surround Sound.

"This entails going back to the original multi-track masters and carefully transferring everything to the new high-resolution digital format."



Some of the missing tapes, he said, "almost certainly have been stolen and are in someone's private collection".

He then appealed to "all friends of the band" to make an effort to locate them.

Queen archivist Greg Brooks added that no one would be prosecuted for taking a tape.

[QUOTE] [b]Holly2003 wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE] [b]4 x Vision wrote:[/b]
Can i ask, the consensus is that this elite group are greedy and out of touch (by my reading)... .[/QUOTE]
Just a quick point. That's not my view. At least that's not my complete view. There are many ways to look at those keeping material out of public view, and I include Queen Productions, Brian May etc., as well as collectors. What has me posting on these recent threads is that the collectors are telling one side of the story -- to summarise and simplify a little, they are sharers not hoarders, and that they aren't elitist, secretive, arrogant etc. But that's only one aspect of it. From another p.o.v, they are little different than Queen Productions and the record companies. When anyone points that out the insults start ("parasites, leechers" etc), and when anyone tries to get a straight answer then they start with the misdirections ("why don't you spend 1000s of pounds...", ridiculous analogies and daft metaphors "gold, silver, bronze".) Really, there's a debate to be had about their methods and another issue about freedom of speech on the forum. [/QUOTE]

Sorry Holly, but they shouldn't be put in the same sentence with QPL, they really are NOT alike in any ways. QPL are a business that keep things back until they reckon there is enough interest (that doesn't just mean Queen fans like us, but the whole public). The "elites" keep things back purposefully for their own entertainment and egos (imo), and in my mind should release nothing as it's not their place to decide what Queen material gets issued, THAT is QPL's decision ALONE.

How many things MIGHT we have had in the best quality, that these "elites" have released under the guise that they're giving something back to us.... BS. They release things to get the credit nothing else, John S Stuart has proved this by his rants in this thread.

Sure I've watched these videos and listened to these tracks, and even thanked them for it, but at the end of the day it wasn't theirs to give. FACT. I truly believe they have forced QPL's hands in NOT releasing anthologies or Earls Courts or Houstons etc. Why should they, if someone is sitting with a pirate copy or can get it easy on YT, this is preventing them from a major slice of income and interest!

[QUOTE] [b]4 x Vision wrote:[/b]
Can I ask a topic 'related' question to the elites? Do you own in your collections ANYTHING that was stolen from Brian May's house years ago?
If I remember it was in the tabloids?
That guy (or woman) didn't take that stuff to sit and listen to rare Queen tracks OR TRADE! So it's only natural deduction he'd sell it.... and who would buy it??? hmmm[/QUOTE]


Are you serious ?

[QUOTE] [b]Togg wrote:[/b]
One a final note, I was so stunned by John's comments regarding his belief that tapes never get stolen I did a little digging, there are literally hundereds of news feeds relating to stolen recordings ending up on sale to collectors. The most recent was of course hackers breaking into Sony's computers and stealing ALL of Micheal Jackson's back catalogue, including of course the Mercury tapes...
Now below is another of the highly publicised thefts... so please dont try to tell me it never happens...
[/QUOTE]

I don't like what you are "hinting". Seriously. In some countries you could end up in a jail for writing something like that on a public forum without any proofs :-(

[QUOTE] [b]Togg wrote:[/b]
More from Brian May no less....
Queen's Brian May has appealed for the return of irreplaceable tapes of the band's original recordings.
The famous guitarist used the pages of Record Collector magazine to launch his appeal.He also hinted that there might be something in it for anyone helping out.
In a letter to the magazine, May said: "We're keen to remix the entire Queen back catalogue of albums in Surround Sound.
"This entails going back to the original multi-track masters and carefully transferring everything to the new high-resolution digital format."
Some of the missing tapes, he said, "almost certainly have been stolen and are in someone's private collection".
He then appealed to "all friends of the band" to make an effort to locate them.
Queen archivist Greg Brooks added that no one would be prosecuted for taking a tape.
[/QUOTE]


People who do things like this are criminals and not traders. They are doing it for only one thing - MONEY. These things are not "tradeable"

Agreed, they are criminals.. my point is this is how lots of this stuff gets into the collectors hands, it gets stolen and then sold over and over.
the 'proof' you ask for is in the new articles, there is plenty of it if you look. I am not going to get thrown in jail for showing people news reports. John made a statement claiming this doesnt happen...err sorry but it does and it does a lot. This is one way in which rare recordings find there way to collector shelves. I am not saying the collectors themselves steal, although I'm sure that has happened as well somewhere in the world, but nobody with any once of sanity can say tracks never get stolen and then sold to collectors...read the news reports they are everywhere, countless numbers of them

Can anyone tell me what value there is in not discussing what rareties there are in your secret vaults? Is it because you expect a torrent of abuse from folks wanting you to share?
Could you not just develop a thick skin and ignore that?
I'd just love to know what exists and what doesn't ??

"These things are not tradeable"

Stolen tapes of The Beatles' last recording sessions were put up for sale for £250,000, a court has been told.

Thsi is how it starts and then it filters down through a trading community... why else do you think it gets stolen, it for money, the same money the serious collectors pay to 'own' this stuff.

Yes, that's what I wrote. The criminals who STEAL tapes from the band can only SELL them on the (black) market, they can't be "TRADED"