Dear OscarJ, I think you underestimate the "minor issues" in the refugee crisis. I never thought that a country could change so much as Germany did since October 2015 - only a year. The attacks in France cost "only" 150 lives but it destroyed the whole European texture and the sexual attacks, riots in refugee homes. mobile phone thefts etc are very few compared with the number of refugees that arrived but they are enough to split my country in a way I never thought possible.
Donald Trump denies the climate change. He incites hatred against refugees but climate change will send us millions and millions of refugees in the next decade. I happen to believe that walls are not the answer to this problem (unless, maybe, you are Australian), we simply cannot ignore the fact that we keep destroying the planet and make it uninhabitable for more and more people in this world. We share the resources and we cannot have (and do not want!!) hunger wars in the future. We need politicians who are able to look at the global issues and are willing and able to find global solutions for global problems. Donald Trump wants to lead a trade war versus China, maintain the supremacy of the USA and does not care about the well being of anyone but himself. Right this very moment he establishes the rule of his horrible familiy - what will happen to democracy in the world? It is so frightening but equally frightening is the fact that the non-racist majority cannot even agree on the most important facts.
magicalfreddiemercury · Member since
[QUOTE]
[b]ParisNair wrote: [/b] [QUOTE] [b]magicalfreddiemercury wrote:[/b] Because my comments had nothing to do with Hillary or her supporters, but with trump and what his win in this election means to my country, and possibly the world.
Since I am talking about her supporters now, I'll say I fully support everyone's right to protest, but I think anyone who engages in violence or destruction belongs in their own basket of deplorables.
The difference, in this context, however, is that Hillary Clinton didn't present or encourage that behavior, while trump clearly did - repeatedly and without apology. [/QUOTE] I missed news of violence by Trump supporters after the election. I'm surprised why they would do it after having won![/QUOTE]
Women and minorities are afraid.
"Since the election, we've seen a big uptick in incidents of vandalism, threats, intimidation spurred by the rhetoric surrounding Mr. Trump's election," Richard Cohen, president of the Southern Poverty Law Center in Montgomery, Ala., told USA TODAY. "The white supremacists out there are celebrating his victory and many are feeling their oats," Cohen said.
"Halina Wawzyniak, a lawmaker from the Left Party, told The Washington Post last week that immigration issues and sexual-assault cases should not be linked, as refugees could end up facing a "double punishment" by being deported."
Criminal refugees should not be deported??? ... Get real.[/QUOTE]
Depends on the crime, but in general, yes. Trump want to deport millions of paperless migrants and close the borders completely from Muslims. That's completely different.
And I did say comparatively minor. Compared to the current situation in places in North Africa for example. The more philosophical problem to me is that just because we were lucky enough to be born and raised in developed countries, we somehow feel entitled to choose whether or not we should help people facing death and misery.
We just need to get better at handling it - be better prepared for situations like the one we saw in 2015. We definitely saw significant challenges in Sweden as well, the European country that imported the most immigrants/capita. It does, to an extent, have a dividing effect on the country. We had riots in refugee homes, Sweden Democrats setting fire to them as revenge, and hundreds of skinheads beating up innocent refugees and their children. The construction of our society was barely capable of dealing with the stream of terrorised and desperate people. But no pain, no gain - I honestly believe the world is all the better for it.
YourValentine: what facts do you think we should agree on? That Immigrants are more prone to committing crime? Sure, about 2,1 times as likely as "native" Swedes. What people usually disagree about is whether it's because they are bad people, that it's because of their culture/religion, or that it's because they are at the absolute bottom on the socioeconomic ladder, afraid, and separated from friends and family.
Donna13 · Member since
Donald Trump got hyped up by the rally crowd, the incredibly extensive reach of his Twitter account, and the debates, and turned into Donald Trump the character: build the wall and make Mexico pay for it, stop Muslims from entering the country, bring back manufacturing jobs from China and Mexico, repeal and replace Obamacare, lock up Hillary Clinton, remove all regulations from businesses, get out of international agreements, put coal miners back to work, and make America great again, etc. (Crowd cheers.)
He is not even president yet, and has already softened his positions: he will not lock up Hillary (he admires her for working very hard for our country and during her campaign), he will keep key provisions of Obamacare but modify it to make it more affordable, he will work with the Democrats and Republicans in Congress, and he will use Obama's counsel (Obama, who was the worst president ever in the history of our country before the election, but who he now has a great deal of respect for and was honored to have met).
I expect to see more of his softening of positions.
Oh, and Bill Clinton called Donald Trump to congratulate him and said he had never seen anything like it. He admired Donald Trump's success as a politician.
This is what I said long ago to my mother (who I like to discuss politics with). I said that my instinct is that Bill Clinton doesn't really want Hillary to win, because it was the amazing charisma of Bill that got him elected, not having Hillary by his side. If she was also able to easily achieve the presidency it would take away from what he had accomplished. Not everyone can get elected. It takes political skill. It's not just about the issues.
Hillary almost made it. She won the popular vote and she will always have that as a great accomplishment.
The Real Wizard · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]ParisNair wrote:[/b]
far far greater proportion of Muslims the world over consider Jews to be sub-human. Far far greater proportion of Muslims consider non-Muslims (especially polytheists, idol worshipers and other pagans) to be inherently ugly and dirty and worthy of being wiped off the face of the earth.
[/QUOTE]
There are 1.6 billion Muslims and 16 million Jews. Are you sure it's proportion?
The Real Wizard · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]ParisNair wrote:[/b]
Thanks for bringing this back on topic.
I don't think you are really screwed. I don't think the President makes any policy decisions all by himself. His more extreme and radical promises are probably never going to be kept by him - those were just election rhetoric. IMHO.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE] [b]magicalfreddiemercury wrote:[/b]
Fourth, and possibly the most awful of all, is that 60+million Americans voted for this guy either in spite of, oblivious to or because of his hateful rhetoric. He has successfully brought bigotry, misogyny and white nationalism into the open. These deplorables, as Hillary Clinton called them, who voted for him feel empowered now and have been out in force harassing people already. And people are afraid.
[/QUOTE]
You're either kidding, or blind to the riots by Hillary supporters. Why would you not mention it at all?[/QUOTE]
Because it's actually true.
Trump has enlivened and emboldened the worst of America. It's all out in the open now.
See for yourself:
https://twitter.com/i/moments/796417517157830656
And aside from this I've read countless stories of blacks, women, Muslims, gays, and transgenders being taunted and attacked while doing something as simple as waiting for the bus.
No doubt millions of people are terrified.
The Real Wizard · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]Panchgani wrote:[/b]
Most of the violence is from ultra-radical Clinton supporters ...
Trump supporters may not be in the streets in the thousands. They are spread out, and being the people they've dreamed of being. Trump has made it all OK.
The Real Wizard · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]Oscar J wrote:[/b]
The late Richard Rorty, important american philosopher, foresaw this happening in 1997:
"Members of labor unions, and unorganized unskilled workers, will sooner or later realize that their government is not even trying to prevent wages from sinking or to prevent jobs from being exported. Around the same time, they will realize that suburban white-collar workers—themselves desperately afraid of being downsized—are not going to let themselves be taxed to provide social benefits for anyone else.
At that point, something will crack. The nonsuburban electorate will decide that the system has failed and start looking around for a strongman to vote for—someone willing to assure them that, once he is elected, the smug bureaucrats, tricky lawyers, overpaid bond salesmen, and postmodernist professors will no longer be calling the shots….
One thing that is very likely to happen is that the gains made in the past forty years by black and brown Americans, and by homosexuals, will be wiped out. Jocular contempt for women will come back into fashion…. All the resentment which badly educated Americans feel about having their manners dictated to them by college graduates will find an outlet. "
[/QUOTE]
Bang fucking on.
Noam Chomsky called it a few years back too.
Oscar J · Member since
[QUOTE]
[b]The Real Wizard wrote: [/b] [QUOTE] [b]ParisNair wrote:[/b]
Thanks for bringing this back on topic. I don't think you are really screwed. I don't think the President makes any policy decisions all by himself. His more extreme and radical promises are probably never going to be kept by him - those were just election rhetoric. IMHO.[/QUOTE]
Wouldn't count on it: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-deport-immigrants-immediately-when-mexico-wall-a7415116.html
And then there's his new energy policy. These four years can't pass quickly enough.
Donna13 · Member since
Be careful because there is fake news out there. Best to stick with legitimate news organizations.
From Wikipedia: "Us Uncut's web site has been criticized as being partisan liberal site.[16] The organization's web site has been accused of deceiving readers[17] and of publishing inaccurate news stories.[18][9]"
Oscar J · Member since
^ Because Wikipedia is a legitimate source. :D
ParisNair · Member since
Its part of the churning. Things will boil over, and soon.
"The Silent Majority" took a lot of shit from Hillary, her supporters, the establishment (both Dem and Rep) and also the media. They feel now is their time under the sun.
This violent phase is temporary for sure. The cops will take over soon, and Trump administration has no choice but to reign them in.
I'll repeat my prediction for the next few years-
- Trump cannot possibly keep most of his high-profile promises. Its impractical and he cannot take any unilateral decisions on policy.
- The silent majority in Europe will take inspiration and there will be far-right governments getting elected all over.
Liberal values are dying soon.
Oscar J · Member since
^ Nah. They might be losing support at the moment, but I don't see the values "dying" (not even sure a value can die?). I just think liberals have to change their tactics from name-calling and shaming to actually discussing the issues. Start debating, provide facts. Burst myths, enlighten people. Because more often than not, facts and science are on their side.
ParisNair · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]Oscar J wrote:[/b]
^ Nah. They might be losing support at the moment, but I don't see the values "dying" (not even sure a value can die?). I just think liberals have to change their tactics from name-calling and shaming to actually discussing the issues. Start debating, provide facts. Burst myths, enlighten people. Because more often than not, facts and science are on their side. [/QUOTE]
Its not so much about the liberal values, as it is about the lies, intolerance, hatred and contempt that the so-called liberals are projecting and have been projecting through the campaign.
I compared this with the fall of communism before. Communism fell in different circumstances altogether, but the similarity is in the disillusionment among a large (if not majority) group of the population with the duplicity that liberals.
Take for instance the announcement of deportation of immigrants. The mainstream media largely leaves out that the deportees would be undocumeented/illegal immigrants. What is this if not misleading news, and fear mongering?
Also, how can deportation of illegal immigrants be a bad thing for America?
