Fenderek
:)
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Posts in chronological order
The Real Wizard
Well, until we get the reply as promised, we can assume that I've proven my point that the average Catholic cannot stand by his intellectual side and actually face constructive criticism or even mere questioning of his religion or faith.
The Real Wizard
Whoa, quick reply, Fenderek! Are you surveying this topic, 24/7? :)
Fenderek
Not, only now
:-)
:-)
Krowa003
i have been quite busy lately, but just because you dont know and understand why I haven't replied yet, there's no reason for you Guitar Hero and Fenderek to say that I am a Catholic who "cannot stand by his intellectual side and actually face constructive criticism".
5) "Catholics believe they are born unclean, and they have to be continually forgiven of this so-called 'sin'." Also, "Catholics are taught that they will always be unclean and full of sin, no matter how hard they try to be the best they can be." I'm just curious of how someone can actually live like this.
This is completely untrue. Catholics beleive that god is forgiving and merciful. Let me give you an example. Some professors in school say that you get an "A" right in the beginning and all you have to do is work hard to maintain that "A". Other professors sau that you get an "F" and your job is to work hard to achieve and "A". Catholicism is like the first case, you have to work hard to maintain your cleanliness, but that does not mean that God is ful of hate. on the contrary, God is merciful acording to Roman Catholic belief.
"In the New Testament, it is said that women are to be subordinate, and not to do anything men do, or have a say in anything, because they do not have the right to. Therefore, any woman who is a true Christian cannot get a job. And any man who marries a woman who gets a job cannot be a true Christian. So technically, by scripture, these people all go to hell because they have forsaken the word."
Did you also read the part where it saysthat men must love and respect their wives to the fullest? What about the Virgin Mary? She is trully respected and looked up to with great reverence. The New Testament does demonstrate kindness toward women.
7) Origin of the word "Christ" and the Q gospel.
The word "Christ" comes from the Greek Cristos(sp?), which mean the annointed one. St. Peter has refered to Jesus as the "annointed One".
The whole history of the Q gospel is believed by many scholars that it was an outside source that some of the Apostles referenced when writing their own account of Jesus' life.
8) "The bible is a collection of writings, from the time, that supposedly represented the best material; the material that would suit the religions. It's a collection of stories where somewhere deep within, there may have been a real event."
When the Bible was being put together, some books were rejected and some were kept. One book, for example had Jesus as a young boy turning people into lizards and doing all sorts of things. It was sort of like an ancient Harry Potter story, and very unbelievable.
9) Re: Adam and Eve in the book of Genesis. "Their kids run off to get married, but who did they marry? Besides their parents, there was nobody else in existence! Unless they married each other, of course. So does that mean that the act of holy matrimony is based on the very first marriage, which was incest?"
Don't tell me that you're going to take the Book of Genesis and consider it factual. These books in the old Testament have to be taken with a grain of salt. They convey a message to the reader, which at that time not meany people read or comprehanded ideas like we do today, so over-exageration was a necessity.
10) "Several faiths (some obscure, but just as old as Christianity) have such stories in them, and many of the "virgin births" happened on the 25th of December as well. How many Christians know this, do you think?"
I do not know of the faith you are talking about. But the 25th of December is not the actual date of Jesus' birth. Many scholars believe that he would have been born sometime in September since the shepards were out with the sheep.
5) "Catholics believe they are born unclean, and they have to be continually forgiven of this so-called 'sin'." Also, "Catholics are taught that they will always be unclean and full of sin, no matter how hard they try to be the best they can be." I'm just curious of how someone can actually live like this.
This is completely untrue. Catholics beleive that god is forgiving and merciful. Let me give you an example. Some professors in school say that you get an "A" right in the beginning and all you have to do is work hard to maintain that "A". Other professors sau that you get an "F" and your job is to work hard to achieve and "A". Catholicism is like the first case, you have to work hard to maintain your cleanliness, but that does not mean that God is ful of hate. on the contrary, God is merciful acording to Roman Catholic belief.
"In the New Testament, it is said that women are to be subordinate, and not to do anything men do, or have a say in anything, because they do not have the right to. Therefore, any woman who is a true Christian cannot get a job. And any man who marries a woman who gets a job cannot be a true Christian. So technically, by scripture, these people all go to hell because they have forsaken the word."
Did you also read the part where it saysthat men must love and respect their wives to the fullest? What about the Virgin Mary? She is trully respected and looked up to with great reverence. The New Testament does demonstrate kindness toward women.
7) Origin of the word "Christ" and the Q gospel.
The word "Christ" comes from the Greek Cristos(sp?), which mean the annointed one. St. Peter has refered to Jesus as the "annointed One".
The whole history of the Q gospel is believed by many scholars that it was an outside source that some of the Apostles referenced when writing their own account of Jesus' life.
8) "The bible is a collection of writings, from the time, that supposedly represented the best material; the material that would suit the religions. It's a collection of stories where somewhere deep within, there may have been a real event."
When the Bible was being put together, some books were rejected and some were kept. One book, for example had Jesus as a young boy turning people into lizards and doing all sorts of things. It was sort of like an ancient Harry Potter story, and very unbelievable.
9) Re: Adam and Eve in the book of Genesis. "Their kids run off to get married, but who did they marry? Besides their parents, there was nobody else in existence! Unless they married each other, of course. So does that mean that the act of holy matrimony is based on the very first marriage, which was incest?"
Don't tell me that you're going to take the Book of Genesis and consider it factual. These books in the old Testament have to be taken with a grain of salt. They convey a message to the reader, which at that time not meany people read or comprehanded ideas like we do today, so over-exageration was a necessity.
10) "Several faiths (some obscure, but just as old as Christianity) have such stories in them, and many of the "virgin births" happened on the 25th of December as well. How many Christians know this, do you think?"
I do not know of the faith you are talking about. But the 25th of December is not the actual date of Jesus' birth. Many scholars believe that he would have been born sometime in September since the shepards were out with the sheep.
Guy
"Don't tell me that you're going to take the Book of Genesis and consider it factual. These books in the old Testament have to be taken with a grain of salt. They convey a message to the reader, which at that time not meany people read or comprehanded ideas like we do today, so over-exageration was a necessity."
Then how do you decide what's real and what isn't, what is normal and what is exagerated?
Then how do you decide what's real and what isn't, what is normal and what is exagerated?
iron eagle
On account of a superficial resemblance between the doctrine of original sin and and the Manichaean theory of our nature being evil, the Pelagians accused the Catholics and St. Augustine of Manichaeism. For the accusation and its answer see "Contra duas epist. Pelag.", I, II, 4; V, 10; III, IX, 25; IV, III. In our own times this charge has been reiterated by several critics and historians of dogma who have been influenced by the fact that before his conversion St. Augustine was a Manichaean. They do not identify Manichaeism with the doctrine of original sin, but they say that St. Augustine, with the remains of his former Manichaean prejudices, created the doctrine of original sin unknown before his time. It is not true that the doctrine of original sin does not appear in the works of the pre-Augustinian Fathers. On the contrary, their testimony is found in special works on the subject. Nor can it be said, as Harnack maintains, that St. Augustine himself acknowledges the absence of this doctrine in the writings of the Fathers. St. Augustine invokes the testimony of eleven Fathers, Greek as well as Latin (Contra Jul., II, x, 33). Baseless also is the assertion that before St. Augustine this doctrine was unknown to the Jews and to the Christians; as we have already shown, it was taught by St. Paul. It is found in the fourth Book of Esdras, a work written by a Jew in the first century after Christ and widely read by the Christians. This book represents Adam as the author of the fall of the human race (vii, 48), as having transmitted to all his posterity the permanent infirmity, the malignity, the bad seed of sin (iii, 21, 22; iv, 30). Protestants themselves admit the doctrine of original sin in this book and others of the same period (see Sanday, "The International Critical Commentary: Romans", 134, 137; Hastings, "A Dictionary of the Bible", I, 841). It is therefore impossible to make St. Augustine, who is of a much later date, the inventor of original sin.
That this doctrine existed in Christian tradition before St. Augustine's time is shown by the practice of the Church in the baptism of children. The Pelagians held that baptism was given to children, not to remit their sin, but to make them better, to give them supernatural life, to make them adoptive sons of God, and heirs to the Kingdom of Heaven (see St. Augustine, "De peccat. meritis", I, xviii). The Catholics answered by citing the Nicene Creed, "Confiteor unum baptisma in remissiomen peccatorum". They reproached the Pelagians with introducing two baptisms, one for adults to remit sins, the other for children with no such purpose. Catholics argued, too, from the ceremonies of baptism, which suppose the child to be under the power of evil, i.e., exorcisms, abjuration of Satan made by the sponsor in the name of the child [Aug., loc. cit., xxxiv, 63; Denz., n. 140 (96)].
That this doctrine existed in Christian tradition before St. Augustine's time is shown by the practice of the Church in the baptism of children. The Pelagians held that baptism was given to children, not to remit their sin, but to make them better, to give them supernatural life, to make them adoptive sons of God, and heirs to the Kingdom of Heaven (see St. Augustine, "De peccat. meritis", I, xviii). The Catholics answered by citing the Nicene Creed, "Confiteor unum baptisma in remissiomen peccatorum". They reproached the Pelagians with introducing two baptisms, one for adults to remit sins, the other for children with no such purpose. Catholics argued, too, from the ceremonies of baptism, which suppose the child to be under the power of evil, i.e., exorcisms, abjuration of Satan made by the sponsor in the name of the child [Aug., loc. cit., xxxiv, 63; Denz., n. 140 (96)].
iron eagle
a little tidbit on sin--
The Church strives continually to impress her children with a sense of the awfulness of sin that they may fear it and avoid it. We are fallen creatures, and our spiritual life on earth is a warfare. Sin is our enemy, and while of our own strength we cannot avoid sin, with God's grace we can. If we but place no obstacle to the workings of grace we can avoid all deliberate sin. If we have the misfortune to sin, and seek God's grace and pardon with a contrite and humble heart, He will not repel us. Sin has its remedy in grace, which is given us by God, through the merits of His only-begotten Son, Who has redeemed us, restoring by His passion and death the order violated by the sin of our first parents, and making us once again children of God and heirs of heaven. Where sin is looked on as a necessary and unavoidable condition of things human, where inability to avoid sin is conceived as necessary, discouragement naturally follows. Where the Catholic doctrine of the creation of man in a superior state, his fall by a wilful transgression, the effects of which fall are by Divine decree transmitted to his posterity, destroying the balance of the human faculties and leaving man inclined to evil; where the dogmas of redemption and grace in reparation of sin are kept in mind, there is no discouragement. Left to ourselves we fall, by keeping close to God and continually seeking His help we can stand and struggle against sin, and if faithful in the battle we must wage shall be crowned in heaven. (See CONSCIENCE; JUSTIFICATION; SCANDAL.)
that they may fear and avoid it.....oooooh we are fallen creatures...... brings back the good ole days for me--when we were told we were going to hell cause we were sinners and everything was a sin....
The Church strives continually to impress her children with a sense of the awfulness of sin that they may fear it and avoid it. We are fallen creatures, and our spiritual life on earth is a warfare. Sin is our enemy, and while of our own strength we cannot avoid sin, with God's grace we can. If we but place no obstacle to the workings of grace we can avoid all deliberate sin. If we have the misfortune to sin, and seek God's grace and pardon with a contrite and humble heart, He will not repel us. Sin has its remedy in grace, which is given us by God, through the merits of His only-begotten Son, Who has redeemed us, restoring by His passion and death the order violated by the sin of our first parents, and making us once again children of God and heirs of heaven. Where sin is looked on as a necessary and unavoidable condition of things human, where inability to avoid sin is conceived as necessary, discouragement naturally follows. Where the Catholic doctrine of the creation of man in a superior state, his fall by a wilful transgression, the effects of which fall are by Divine decree transmitted to his posterity, destroying the balance of the human faculties and leaving man inclined to evil; where the dogmas of redemption and grace in reparation of sin are kept in mind, there is no discouragement. Left to ourselves we fall, by keeping close to God and continually seeking His help we can stand and struggle against sin, and if faithful in the battle we must wage shall be crowned in heaven. (See CONSCIENCE; JUSTIFICATION; SCANDAL.)
that they may fear and avoid it.....oooooh we are fallen creatures...... brings back the good ole days for me--when we were told we were going to hell cause we were sinners and everything was a sin....
iron eagle
The Bible, as the inspired recorded of revelation, contains the word of God; that is, it contains those revealed truths which the Holy Ghost wishes to be transmitted in writing. However, all revealed truths are not contained in the Bible (see TRADITION); neither is every truth in the Bible revealed, if by revelation is meant the manifestation of hidden truths which could not other be known. Much of the Scripture came to its writers through the channels of ordinary knowledge, but its sacred character and Divine authority are not limited to those parts which contain revelation strictly so termed. The Bible not only contains the word of God; it is the word of God. The primary author is the Holy Ghost, or, as it is commonly expressed, the human authors wrote under the influence of Divine inspiration. It was declared by the Vatican Council (Sess. III, c. ii) that the sacred and canonical character of Scripture would not be sufficiently explained by saying that the books were composed by human diligence and then approved by the Church, or that they contained revelation without error. They are sacred and canonical "because, having been written by inspiration of the Holy Ghost, that have God for their author, and as such have been handed down to the Church". The inerrancy of the Bible follows as a consequence of this Divine authorship. Wherever the sacred writer makes a statement as his own, that statement is the word of God and infallibly true, whatever be the subject-matter of the statement.
It will be seen, therefore, that though the inspiration of any writer and the sacred character of his work be antecedent to its recognition by the Church yet we are dependent upon the Church for our knowledge of the existence of this inspiration. She is the appointed witness and guardian of revelation. From her alone we know what books belong to the Bible. At the Council of Trent she enumerated the books which must be considered "as sacred and canonical". They are the seventy-two books found in Catholic editions, forty-five in the Old Testament and twenty-seven in the New. Protestant copies usually lack the seven books (viz: Tobias, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, and I, II Machabees) and parts of books (viz: Esther 10:4-16:24, and Daniel 3:24-90; 13:1-14:42) which are not found in the Jewish editions of the Old Testament.
-------- When the Bible was being put together, some books were rejected and some were kept. One book, for example had Jesus as a young boy turning people into lizards and doing all sorts of things. It was sort of like an ancient Harry Potter story, and very unbelievable.--------
being this is written--The primary author is the Holy Ghost,--- ya think maybe that book shouldve stayed in after all..... imagine telling the holy ghost that book was unbelievable....... mortal sin i say a mortal sin.......
It will be seen, therefore, that though the inspiration of any writer and the sacred character of his work be antecedent to its recognition by the Church yet we are dependent upon the Church for our knowledge of the existence of this inspiration. She is the appointed witness and guardian of revelation. From her alone we know what books belong to the Bible. At the Council of Trent she enumerated the books which must be considered "as sacred and canonical". They are the seventy-two books found in Catholic editions, forty-five in the Old Testament and twenty-seven in the New. Protestant copies usually lack the seven books (viz: Tobias, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, and I, II Machabees) and parts of books (viz: Esther 10:4-16:24, and Daniel 3:24-90; 13:1-14:42) which are not found in the Jewish editions of the Old Testament.
-------- When the Bible was being put together, some books were rejected and some were kept. One book, for example had Jesus as a young boy turning people into lizards and doing all sorts of things. It was sort of like an ancient Harry Potter story, and very unbelievable.--------
being this is written--The primary author is the Holy Ghost,--- ya think maybe that book shouldve stayed in after all..... imagine telling the holy ghost that book was unbelievable....... mortal sin i say a mortal sin.......
geeksandgeeks
First of all, Guitar Hero, I totally sympathize with you. I've never actualy been to a church service (I have been to a synagogue and the people there were very kind and polite, and the rabbi didn't tell those of us who were there for the first time that we were destined for eternal damnation), I have listened to a number of preachers, and there were a few very scary ones. like, for example, the one that effectively said that I wasn't fully human because I'm an atheist AND I believe in gay rights. I'm not saying that the extreme left can't be nutty, but man, there's something i really don't appreciate about being told twice a day that I can't possibly have good morals if I don't believe.
The Real Wizard
"cannot stand by his intellectual side and actually face constructive criticism"
->
"or even mere questioning of his religion or faith"
Funny how you cut out the latter part.
"Catholicism is like the first case, you have to work hard to maintain your cleanliness"
And who is to say what is clean and what is unclean? The church?
According to scripture, you are born physically intact, but spiritually dead, and you have to spend your life trying to become acceptable to God. Once you sacrifice your mind ("trust not in your own instinct but in your God's", as scripture says), and completely give your life to an invisible being, then you are supposed to feel spiritually full and clean of sin. That's Catholicism in a sentence. They tell you what to experience, and how to experience it.
"Did you also read the part where it saysthat men must love and respect their wives to the fullest?"
Yes, men could still love and respect their wives, but those words do not negate the fact that the wife still must maintain her silence and unemployment, as the scripture demands.
Btw, you *completely* avoided the question, and answered with a question. It is there in black and white; women are to be subordinate. How dare ye go against God's word and plan to give a woman the freedom of speech?
"What about the Virgin Mary? She is trully respected and looked up to with great reverence"
Only because God apparently chose her to be special over the others. That doesn't excuse the mistreatment the rest of the women of the time endured.
"The word "Christ" comes from the Greek Cristos(sp?), which mean the annointed one. St. Peter has refered to Jesus as the "annointed One"."
But that doesn't explain who gave Jesus that surname, does it?
"The whole history of the Q gospel is believed by many scholars that it was an outside source that some of the Apostles referenced when writing their own account of Jesus' life."
That's 100% correct. Pity the Gospel writers have torn the book to shreds and told the stories as they'd like them to be told.
"When the Bible was being put together, some books were rejected and some were kept."
Well, naturally... it was compiled over the course of about 500 years! I doubt they could even consider including 500 years worth of religious-oriented writings into a single book, could they? :)
"One book, for example had Jesus as a young boy turning people into lizards and doing all sorts of things. It was sort of like an ancient Harry Potter story, and very unbelievable."
And you're going to tell me the bible isn't already full of stuff just as crazy and unbelievable as this?
"Don't tell me that you're going to take the Book of Genesis and consider it factual"
In the bible, if sin originated with Adam and Eve, and you don't believe in that story, then why is the word sin in your posts? And if other Catholics do realize this little problem, why do they focus so much on the clensing of sin being part of their lives? The answer: Fear, inflicted by the church. If you're denying this, then clearly you're not going to a Catholic church that runs according to the lectionary.
"Then how do you decide what's real and what isn't, what is normal and what is exagerated?"
As Guy put it... a great question. Can't wait for this answer!
"But the 25th of December is not the actual date of Jesus' birth. Many scholars believe that he would have been born sometime in September since the shepards were out with the sheep."
Then why do you celebrate Christmas as the anniversary of the birth of Jesus? Why does the church not see this and question it? I know why... because it's easier not to question things and stick with what's been done for centuries.
4) Mark 15:39 and the translation issues leading to questioning the origin of the trinity, page 3.
You missed this one. :) But I'll start if off... Mark really wrote "truly this is a son of god", and not "truly this is the
->
"or even mere questioning of his religion or faith"
Funny how you cut out the latter part.
"Catholicism is like the first case, you have to work hard to maintain your cleanliness"
And who is to say what is clean and what is unclean? The church?
According to scripture, you are born physically intact, but spiritually dead, and you have to spend your life trying to become acceptable to God. Once you sacrifice your mind ("trust not in your own instinct but in your God's", as scripture says), and completely give your life to an invisible being, then you are supposed to feel spiritually full and clean of sin. That's Catholicism in a sentence. They tell you what to experience, and how to experience it.
"Did you also read the part where it saysthat men must love and respect their wives to the fullest?"
Yes, men could still love and respect their wives, but those words do not negate the fact that the wife still must maintain her silence and unemployment, as the scripture demands.
Btw, you *completely* avoided the question, and answered with a question. It is there in black and white; women are to be subordinate. How dare ye go against God's word and plan to give a woman the freedom of speech?
"What about the Virgin Mary? She is trully respected and looked up to with great reverence"
Only because God apparently chose her to be special over the others. That doesn't excuse the mistreatment the rest of the women of the time endured.
"The word "Christ" comes from the Greek Cristos(sp?), which mean the annointed one. St. Peter has refered to Jesus as the "annointed One"."
But that doesn't explain who gave Jesus that surname, does it?
"The whole history of the Q gospel is believed by many scholars that it was an outside source that some of the Apostles referenced when writing their own account of Jesus' life."
That's 100% correct. Pity the Gospel writers have torn the book to shreds and told the stories as they'd like them to be told.
"When the Bible was being put together, some books were rejected and some were kept."
Well, naturally... it was compiled over the course of about 500 years! I doubt they could even consider including 500 years worth of religious-oriented writings into a single book, could they? :)
"One book, for example had Jesus as a young boy turning people into lizards and doing all sorts of things. It was sort of like an ancient Harry Potter story, and very unbelievable."
And you're going to tell me the bible isn't already full of stuff just as crazy and unbelievable as this?
"Don't tell me that you're going to take the Book of Genesis and consider it factual"
In the bible, if sin originated with Adam and Eve, and you don't believe in that story, then why is the word sin in your posts? And if other Catholics do realize this little problem, why do they focus so much on the clensing of sin being part of their lives? The answer: Fear, inflicted by the church. If you're denying this, then clearly you're not going to a Catholic church that runs according to the lectionary.
"Then how do you decide what's real and what isn't, what is normal and what is exagerated?"
As Guy put it... a great question. Can't wait for this answer!
"But the 25th of December is not the actual date of Jesus' birth. Many scholars believe that he would have been born sometime in September since the shepards were out with the sheep."
Then why do you celebrate Christmas as the anniversary of the birth of Jesus? Why does the church not see this and question it? I know why... because it's easier not to question things and stick with what's been done for centuries.
4) Mark 15:39 and the translation issues leading to questioning the origin of the trinity, page 3.
You missed this one. :) But I'll start if off... Mark really wrote "truly this is a son of god", and not "truly this is the
Saffron Caribou
Oooooh more more arguements! I love theological arguements!
Saffron Caribou
BTW, sticking to the original topic. did anyone hear that the Gibson film has been pulled off from the date of release because of the ACLU confirmed that it is anti semitic?
I guess we have to wait a lil bit longer.
I guess we have to wait a lil bit longer.
Freddie-B
By eck, that ran for a bit didn't it!
Fenderek
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