The Passion of Christ

"We got our lands legally in 1947 by the UN while they attempt to get them by violence"

That is such a loaded, one-sided argument. Would you care to tell the rest of the story? Like who resided on the land so casually and imperiously "given away" by the UN (or by the British in the Balfour Declaration 30 years previously). Or what size was Israel supposed to be compared to what it is now? Or how you use the UN to justify the existance of Israel and yet you don't mention that Israel is the nation most in violation of UN resolutions!

As for violence, I assume you know about the King David Hotel Massacre in 1947 and the lynching of British troops by Israeli terrorists - those same British troops who, along with Americans and Russians, liberated the nazi death camps in 1945. I suppose those Israeli terrorists were "freedom fighters"?

There's two sides to every story...

Regarding Northern Ireland, irish and british nationalism is the cause of the conflict, not religion, which was only a factor 300 years ago and not today. None of the terrorists in Ulster kill for religious reasons.

It's also misleading to compare my country with Israel, Kosovo, the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition etc... for the following reason: there were 4000 people killed in 25 years or so of violence in Northern Ireland. Let's compare that with gun deaths in the usa for any given year. In 1999, for example, there were 28,874 gun-related deaths in the United States - over 80 deaths every day. (Source: Hoyert DL, Arias E, Smith BL, Murphy SL, Kochanek, KD. Deaths: Final Data for 1999. National Vital Statistics Reports. 2001;49 (8).)

No contest. NI is a much safer place than even the USA. Don't believe everything you see on TV.

Listen all of you wh are attacking the Catholic faith. Over the last 2000 years, there have been three things that have remained the same within the Church. They are Faith, Dogma, and Tradition. Sure there have been instances where the Church might have appeared to be more than living up to the word of God. However, that came from the Church's heirchy, not the three virtues that remain the same.

Men are sinners, and this is evident in the Catholic Church as well as other religions. The fact that we all must acknowlege here is that the Church's dogma, faith and tradition have remained true to itself, following the teachings of Christ. ANd becaose of that, the Catholic church is able to recognize its mistakes.

Can you saythat about other religions? I don't think so. The bottom line is that if some of you may have had a bad experience with the Church, that't a shame, but don't condemn the entire institution for mistakes of the few.

The Catholic faith teaches forgiveness, and that is a lot compared to other religions; I'm sure I don't need to cite examples here. So why don't some of you take a hint from that.

Also, I wonder how many of you are Roman Catholics here. It'seems that everyone has a lot of negative things to say.

You wanna talk about history Holly2003? Let's go.

The Israelis were in what we call Israel today before the Palestinians were. For years we were ruled by other people, including the Romans. After a while, we were FORCED to leave Israel and move to Babylon (today's Iraq). Ofcourse there was still a small amount of Jewish population in Israel. So basically, we had those lands before the UN had "given" them to us. All the UN did was giving us international recognition.

Now, should I move to the "liberation of the Nazi death camps"?

The liberation you talk about took exactly 5 years. More than 6 million Jews were murdered between 1939 to 1944, while the world KNEW (and there are documents that prove that) and did NOTHING. Just for your information, there were special brigades of Jewish soldiers only within the British army, so we helped in World War II as much as we could (we had no army, what did you expect?).

About the King David hotel bombing... I just love when people talk about things they know so little about.

The King David hotel was the site of the British military command and the British Criminal Investigation Division.
On June 29th 1946 British troops invaded the Jewish Agency's and confiscated a large amount of documents.

What was the Jewish Agency you ask? It was merely an organization trying to bring as many Jews to Israel as possible. Why? The anti-semitism started long before World War II. There were lots of pogroms (massacres) that murdered Jews mostly in East Europe (Russia & Poland). The Jewish Agency's goal was simply to save as many Jews as possible from death.
The British, however, prohibited any entrance of Jews to Israel, simply because it would hurt their interests with the Arabs. And so, because of their stupid immigration policy, thousands of lives were lost throughout Europe.

Let's go back to the raid on the Jewish Agency's offices. As a result of that act, 2500 Jews were arrested. The documents that were confiscated, that included Jewish activities in Arab countries, were moved to the King David hotel.
A week later 40 Jews were murdered in a pogrom in Poland. That reminded the Jews in Israel what the British are causing.

The Jewish underground organization "Etzel" planted explosives in the King David hotel. The purpose was to destroy the confiscated documents without any life loss.
On July 22nd 1946 3 telephone calls were placed and warned that explosives are about to be detonated and that the hotel must be evacuated. One call was made to the hotel, one to the French embassy and one to the Palestine Post.
When the British soldier at the King David hotel picked up the phone and was told to evacuate he answered "We don't take orders from Jews".

A total of 91 people were killed in the explosion, 15 of them Jews.

In 1979, after decades of denies they have been warned, a member of the British Parlament introduced a testimony of a British officer who was at the hotel. The officer overheard a conversation between other 2 officers, talking about a Zionist threat. The officer left the hotel immediately and survived. I wouldn't call that bombing a massacre.

And I haven't even talked about the Palestinian terror acts against the Jews in those years...

I invite you, Holly2003, to live in Israel. I want to see how you deal with 700 dead people in 3 years, as a result of homicide bombers. A person that views from the side can never understand what's going on in the core.

Your version of the King David Hotel Massacre has been stolen shamelessly from this pro-Israeli website:
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/King_David.html
For someone who has responded to my questioning of your one-sided comments with insults ("I just love when people talk about things they know so little about") it seems you didn't know about this incident until I mentioned it. Contrary to your copied version of events, these Israeli terrorists shot dead a British officer and then a policemen who got in their way. They detonated the bomb knowing full well that many British, Palestinian, and (yes) Jewish lives would be lost. The real facts are there for anyone to look up.

In any event, the point I'm making here is that you give a totally one-sided version of events designed to make Israel look innocent. It is absolutely clear to disinterested parties that Israelis used terrorism to establish the Israeli state and they CONTINUE to use it against Palestinians, just as Palestinians use terror against Israelis. Incidentally, your quote ""We don't take orders from Jews" appears to be absolutely untracable (except to pro-Israeli websites perhaps?). So please quote your source, otherwise it can be discarded as propaganda.

"The Israelis were in what we call Israel today before the Palestinians were. For years we were ruled by other people, including the Romans. After a while, we were FORCED to leave Israel and move to Babylon (today's Iraq). Ofcourse there was still a small amount of Jewish population in Israel. So basically, we had those lands before the UN has "given" them to us. All the UN did was giving us international recognition."

What is interesting here is what is omitted i.e. any mention at all of the Palestinians who also lived on the land. Are you ever going to mention them?

"The liberation you talk about took exactly 5 years. More than 6 million Jews were murdered between 1939 to 1944, while the world KNEW (and there are documents that prove that) and did NOTHING."

Winston Churchill mentioned the Nazi round up of Jews in his radio addresses as early as 1941. However, few people believed him given the false atrocity stories (rape of Belgian nuns, slaughter of POWs etc) attributed to Germany by the British in WW1. In any event, it may have escaped your attention that Britain was fighting for its existance in WW2 and there was little if anything it could've done to prevent the Holocaust. Should the RAF have bombed Auschwitz, for example? What material steps could Britain have taken to stop the round up of Jews across Europe? Your attitude is unsurprising, given your efforts to excuse and minimize Israeli culpability for terrorism at the King David Hotel and your failure to respond to my comments about Israeli terrorists lynching British troops.

"Just for your information, there were special brigades of Jewish soldiers only within the British army, so we helped in World War II as much as we could (we had no army, what did you expect?)"

I made no mention of this at all so I have no clue why you bring it up.

"What was the Jewish Agency you ask? It was merely an organization trying to bring as many Jews to Israel as possible. Why?"

To steal land that Palestinians had resided on for centuries. Do you deny it?

"The anti-semitism started long before World War II. There were lots of pogroms (massacres) that murdered Jews mostly in East Europe (Russia & Poland). The Jewish Agency's goal was simply to save as many Jews as possible from death. The British, however, prohibited any entrance of Jews to Israel, simply because it would hurt their interests with the Arabs. And so, because of their stupid immigration policy, thousands of lives were lost throughout Europe."

Britain had a responsibily to both sides in Palestine - jews and arabs. There was no reason for Britain to think that mass immigration to Israel before WW2 would benefit anyone except Jews. Looking back, there's no doubt that man

Have I ever said Israel (which didn't even exist at that time) was innocent? Have I ever said I support the hotel bombing?

What I said was not intended to be an insult, merely my point of view. You didn't even know when that bombing took place, or when was the liberation of the Nazi death camps.

Claiming I didn't even know of the event - that's an insult. I know a lot more than you on Israel's history, and I do not deny I took some numbers and facts from the above site. Most of what I've written in my last post came from my History lessons in school. In fact, right now we are studying about anti-semitism in Europe, care to join? I'm sure you'll learn a few things.

I didn't really understand your statement of the Palestinians killed as Israelis. If you mean Arabs that live in Israel in cities such as Acre, Jaffa & Jerusalem, there have been terrorists from that sector as well.

This issue is not something you can understand from the side. You can not argue on French politics with a French, can you? Same here. Like I said, it's easy to be an outsider and claim you're objective. What you see on the BBC isn't what's really happening. I can show you some pictures from homicide bombings that would make you spit out your breakfast. That's what the Palestinians do, they show you pictures of their dead. If we would have done what they do, the whole world would be on our side. We didn't declare the Jihad, they did.

It hurt when you lost those 20 people in Turkey, didn't it? Guess how we feel.

I see you edited your post. Fine, let me reply to the holocaust issue.

It is clear to me Britain was fighting for its existence. By the way, I'm sure the soldiers there were in Israel would be more useful in the war, but whatever. You would have lost the war if it wasn't for the US.

I never blamed Britain personally. Just in case you didn't notice, I used the words "the world". There were other countries in the Allied Forces and together you could have done something. You started talking about the Nazis, I wouldn't have mentioned the holocaust otherwise.

About the hotel bombing, you said the site was pro-Israeli. Fine, here's a british site for you, presenting the same facts about the officer's testimony: http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/bombing_of_the_king_david_hotel.htm

"There was no reason for Britain to think that mass immigration to Israel before WW2 would benefit anyone except Jews."

That makes me sick, you know that? It's not like there were 100 pogroms in 1 single day, it was over a period of 60 years, starting in 1881. What you're saying is "so what if Jews could be saved?". That's why the world looks like it does, because everyone only wants to take care of themselves.

Oh yeah, and about the Jewish Agency - yes, I deny it. Can you give any proofs Tel-Aviv was a Palestinian land or that Haifa was? I'm waiting.

And I also think you need to look again at the middle east before you talk on Israel's policy: http://unreal.co.il/files/iataw.gif

Let's face it... there will never be peace in between Israel & Palestine.

Both of them are a disgrace to the world today. Most people from both sides believe there won't be peace until one wipes the other completely out of the "holy land".

WARNING:
THIS POST IS NOT FOR THE FAINT OF HEART AND MAY ACTUALLY OPEN MINDS.

"It all depends what we do with religion and with what God teaches. We were made free to choose."

Absolutely not! In the cases of conservative Christans for example, they are threatened by their preachers (I've seen it with my OWN EYES), and they are told that if they do not do what their "God says", then they will be condemned to hell for eternity.

"Over the last 2000 years, there have been three things that have remained the same within the Church."

Wow, are you ever wrong! The church has progressed over the past 2000 years, and very little has remained the same! Who's feeding you this hogwash? Your priest? Ahh, a very reliable source. The style of worship hasn't changed much in the past couple hundred years, but 2000 years ago, there was no such thing as Catholicism. That was created much later on from the roots of Judaism.

My minister is a religious scholar with a pHD in the philosophy of religion, and perhaps I will get him to post here to set a few people straight about the history and lies of religion.

In the meantime, those who are not faint of heart or closed-minded should go to their local book store and purchase a book called "The Dishonest Church". I cannot remember the author's name off the top of my head, but I will edit this post when I find it. This book will set people straight, as long as they open their minds to the abominations of the so-called "church" and what it has been doing to destroy the minds of people for hundreds of years. It offers possible solutions to long-standing religious problems that involve opening the mind, and doing good for others, without condemning them or making them feel unclean; something the Catholic church knows little about.

This process can only involve the strongest people we can find, but most are buried in their religions with little hope of freedom. Most people find security in the fact that their God is doing their thinking for them, and has a plan for them. That sounds much easier than thinking for yourself and saying, "hey, this is wrong. Why can't I think for myself?" But nope, you can't say that... the church says you cannot say that with "do not put the Lord your God to the test". The perfect mind control system.

"Men are sinners, and this is evident in the Catholic Church as well as other religions."

You know, the word "sin" as we know it is a word that was artificially created for the convenience of scaring people within the Christian faith.

There is a passage in the NT (the "Prodigal son" story) where the boy says says, "father, I have sinned". Wow, was this ever incorrectly translated. The original Greek writing for this passage is translated as, "father, I have wandered", meaning wandered from the house, as he did something to shame his family. So does this mean that the entire concept of "sin" as we know it is one huge lie? You betcha. You won't find this information in the bible, will you? This may actually require someone to find... another book! *trembles*

I know of several other passages which contain such incorrect translations from the original Greek/Latin, but I cannot remember them all off-hand, unfortunately. One I can remember is Mark 15:39, where the quote should be, "truly this is a son of god", not "the son of god". This can be taken as a hint that the original writings did nothing to encourage the trinity as we know it today. Hmm, I wonder who changed that quote????? I can just picture the religious hustlers in the year 200... "Oh wait, we have to change that... otherwise they'll question it. Ahh, there we go. Perfect."

Some newer versions of the bible have gone out of their way to correct this issue by saying "truly, this man was God's son". That totally changes the meaning of the quote, seemingly leaving no room for interpretation. How's that for a "dishonest church" ??

Catholics have spent ages basi

Wrong, Mr. Jingles. I know for a fact that most people in Israel believe there won't be peace until Arafat is dead.

Thanks Matt, you have no idea what your support means to me =)

Done :)

It is also a fact that there won't be peace as long as Sharon is alive.

"I see you edited your post."

No I did not.

Is there anything here I need to reply to since you haven't made any effort to reply to my points at all. You simply continue to paint Israel as non-aggressor and victim and I'm not going to let you spread that propaganda unchallenged. Why did you use the UN to say Israel's land grab was "legal" and subsequent Israeli violence justified, and then not mention that Israel is in violation of numerous UN Resolutions? Because you want to paint Israel as "victim." Israel was clearly created through terror (King David Hotel Massacre, lynching of British troops, terrorist attacks against British troops and Arabs, murder of Swedish mediator in 1948 etc) and your claims to the contrary are nothing but propaganda. Why don't you mention, for example, what size the UN envisaged Israel as and what size Israel is now? Why haven't you mentioned the Palestinian victims at all? It's clear that either you are deliberately not giving the whole story or there's a lot about your own history you aren't aware of (the 3-1 ratio of Palestinian victims compared to Israeli, for example). Don't worry though - as long as you continue to tell a one-sided version of events, I'll fill in the gaps for you.